HI there.
If somebody is interested: I have changed the manual press. It has now a Siemens SPS control unit.
You can find a video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGqL0jgS_XU
And Pics here: www.flight13-duplication.com/daten/Umbau_Presse.zip
If anybody wants to do the same or if anybody needs help or whatever, just contact me.
I have also changed the valves and everything else that had to be changed. In the end it was around 5000 EUR.
While the works were going on I often thought: Is it good what we are doing here ?????
But in the end I have to say that it was worth every cent. The main advantage for me is that every record has the same quelity now. before the change, I often had bad records while the last 5 for example were good. Now all records have the same quality.
The SPS gives an impulse to the extruder and it starts automatically. Which is also great as I often forgot to start the extruder.
The time for a 7" Picture is 40 seconds now. Every type of record has a own programm. 7", 7" pic, 12", 12" Pic. The temperature of the cooling water is always on the display and also the preassure of the cooling water. The records are counted every time the press openes. Every information is on the touch screen and can be changed directly with plus/minus button or you can directly type in a value.
I am really very very happy and if anybody needs my help, just drop me a line.
BTW: I am still looking for a Toolex Alpha 7" or 12" automatic press. I will die as a happy man when I get one and I will die as happy when I do not get one. It is not important. But if anybody hears something I would probably buy and restore it.
Have a nice sunday!
Cheers,
Bieber
Manual Press with Siemens SPS control unit
Moderators: piaptk, tragwag, Steve E., Aussie0zborn
-
Flight13_duplication
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:20 am
-
Flight13_duplication
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:20 am
-
Aussie0zborn
- Posts: 1839
- Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:23 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Bieber, you did some great work there. Looks like you installed a light curtain, too. Repeatability is very important for consistent quality.
I think you probably have too much flash on the 7" pressing. Cycle time seems to be very long - what steam / water pressure are you using? Your press has a lot of daylight and seems to take a long time to close.
While you are waiting for the press to open, you can probably assemble the labels and the vinyl to make a "sandwich" which you can then drop onto the centre pin with one hand.
Let me know if you ever want to sell that SP79.
I think you probably have too much flash on the 7" pressing. Cycle time seems to be very long - what steam / water pressure are you using? Your press has a lot of daylight and seems to take a long time to close.
While you are waiting for the press to open, you can probably assemble the labels and the vinyl to make a "sandwich" which you can then drop onto the centre pin with one hand.
Let me know if you ever want to sell that SP79.
-
Flight13_duplication
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:20 am
Hey! Thanks for the flowers!
Yes, the light curtain was the most expensive part. 2000 EUR. But it is programmable and a minimum of security should be worth the money...
Yes, the flash in the video is too much. Normally I do not have so much flash. I guess this was in the beginning of the pressing. I always have to adjust it every time I start pressing.
Do you really think 40 sec is long? It is faster than before (50 sec). I think I have a Heating time of 6 sec. Then 6 secs nothing but pressing. And then 8 sec cooling (at 10 bar open, 16 bar closed).
Yes, closing of the press is problem. I know. But as the press was build in 1974 in order to press records, I do not think that it was ever different. After the change I also thought to buy a 2nd press and change it to a record press. But as Mossy said: It is almost impossible to find a press that closes fast enough and has the right hydraulic and size....
But one dream, as I said, is to restore a Toolex automatic press and change it to SPS. There are some pics in the net of "qualityrecordpressings.com". How beautiful those machines are when they look like new! hahaha.
Cheers,
Bieber
Yes, the light curtain was the most expensive part. 2000 EUR. But it is programmable and a minimum of security should be worth the money...
Yes, the flash in the video is too much. Normally I do not have so much flash. I guess this was in the beginning of the pressing. I always have to adjust it every time I start pressing.
Do you really think 40 sec is long? It is faster than before (50 sec). I think I have a Heating time of 6 sec. Then 6 secs nothing but pressing. And then 8 sec cooling (at 10 bar open, 16 bar closed).
Yes, closing of the press is problem. I know. But as the press was build in 1974 in order to press records, I do not think that it was ever different. After the change I also thought to buy a 2nd press and change it to a record press. But as Mossy said: It is almost impossible to find a press that closes fast enough and has the right hydraulic and size....
But one dream, as I said, is to restore a Toolex automatic press and change it to SPS. There are some pics in the net of "qualityrecordpressings.com". How beautiful those machines are when they look like new! hahaha.
Cheers,
Bieber
-
Aussie0zborn
- Posts: 1839
- Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:23 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
-
Flight13_duplication
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:20 am
Hey
Whats the point? 15-17-18 seconds
17 -18 s for a 702 Nice and easy no issues no jamming every record is a good one
28-32 s for a AD12" Lovely No rejects nice records No pressure fluctuations from steam hydraulics water or air
Of course that is given all auxiliary services are matched to the installed base of the pressing plant requirements already something that this day and age in some plants it is not the case
The operator has a chance to check the machine's output out make adjustments settle it down than do any required fine tune up
The machines have a greater change of making rubbish the faster you run them we all know that
Now days with 150-500 runs why would you bother having everything running flat out?
When stamper change time comes you lost all the advantage of that high speed
Yeah time is money however in this case a 10% reject rate will diminish any gain derived from the 2-4 second per cycle advantage one gets
In so far as manual presses are concerned Hard to see how a cycle of less than 28 s for a 7" or a 35 s cycle for a 12" is achievable regardless of what people say
It is a matter of physical movement of the machine with the operator standing in front of it removing the record and placing it on the trimmer Regardless of what any one says there will always be 3 seconds required for the opening and closing movement of the press
I doubt that a 22 KG lump of steel, the weight of a set of 12" molds, can be bought up to 150 C than down to say 28 C in less than 10 seconds
Regardless of how good the molds are and how much steam pressure as well as cooling water is available there
It has to be heated up and than cooled down so 13 seconds are GONE already
These are actual physical issues
A typical Cycle works like this:
Assume it is open ready to start pressing
Interval time starts 8s
Place a label each side A and B
Interval time ends
Heating 1 starts 6 s
Remove puck from extruder and place on bottom stamper
Close gate Press starts closing
Heat one ends press closes
( 1.5 s before heat 1 cycle ends)
Heat 2 runs 8 s
At end of heat 2 Cooling starts 8-10 s
Cooling cycle ends
Press opens and gate opens at the same time No operator intervention
Interval timer starts
Operator repeats Labels Puck closes the gate Cycle starts again
One of the timers overlaps by 1.5 s
So cycle time is the total of all timers less 1.5 seconds The interval timer is a case of how fast the operator is but but how long would the operator keep it up? may be 2 hours max
Than they slow down but by that time the job of 150-200 is done any way so what the big deal
That how it works guys not academically or in brochures In real life
With 20 autos and 5 manual presses running pressing records every day who wants a challenge on this subject?
Cheers
Whats the point? 15-17-18 seconds
17 -18 s for a 702 Nice and easy no issues no jamming every record is a good one
28-32 s for a AD12" Lovely No rejects nice records No pressure fluctuations from steam hydraulics water or air
Of course that is given all auxiliary services are matched to the installed base of the pressing plant requirements already something that this day and age in some plants it is not the case
The operator has a chance to check the machine's output out make adjustments settle it down than do any required fine tune up
The machines have a greater change of making rubbish the faster you run them we all know that
Now days with 150-500 runs why would you bother having everything running flat out?
When stamper change time comes you lost all the advantage of that high speed
Yeah time is money however in this case a 10% reject rate will diminish any gain derived from the 2-4 second per cycle advantage one gets
In so far as manual presses are concerned Hard to see how a cycle of less than 28 s for a 7" or a 35 s cycle for a 12" is achievable regardless of what people say
It is a matter of physical movement of the machine with the operator standing in front of it removing the record and placing it on the trimmer Regardless of what any one says there will always be 3 seconds required for the opening and closing movement of the press
I doubt that a 22 KG lump of steel, the weight of a set of 12" molds, can be bought up to 150 C than down to say 28 C in less than 10 seconds
Regardless of how good the molds are and how much steam pressure as well as cooling water is available there
It has to be heated up and than cooled down so 13 seconds are GONE already
These are actual physical issues
A typical Cycle works like this:
Assume it is open ready to start pressing
Interval time starts 8s
Place a label each side A and B
Interval time ends
Heating 1 starts 6 s
Remove puck from extruder and place on bottom stamper
Close gate Press starts closing
Heat one ends press closes
( 1.5 s before heat 1 cycle ends)
Heat 2 runs 8 s
At end of heat 2 Cooling starts 8-10 s
Cooling cycle ends
Press opens and gate opens at the same time No operator intervention
Interval timer starts
Operator repeats Labels Puck closes the gate Cycle starts again
One of the timers overlaps by 1.5 s
So cycle time is the total of all timers less 1.5 seconds The interval timer is a case of how fast the operator is but but how long would the operator keep it up? may be 2 hours max
Than they slow down but by that time the job of 150-200 is done any way so what the big deal
That how it works guys not academically or in brochures In real life
With 20 autos and 5 manual presses running pressing records every day who wants a challenge on this subject?
Cheers
Chris
-
Aussie0zborn
- Posts: 1839
- Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:23 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Ahh.... you're forgetting about an earlier discussion about George at RCA who used to read the neswpaper while pressing four 7" records per minute on an Alpha Toolex manual. And he did that for eight hours each day. But he had a couple of vinyl pucks ready sitting on the shelf at the front of the press.
What I don't get is how manual press operators today need to use two hands to apply the labels. Real men always did it with one hand - left hand for lower label and right hand for top label - at the same time. There's a saving of one second and a saving of another second if you have the vinyl puck ready - not that we ever did it... we always took the puck fresh off the extruder.
H1 (Heat Cycle 1) can start as soon as the record is removed. If I remember correctly, H2 (pressing before admission of cooling water) is about 2 seconds. The more I read on this forum the more I realise just how much you forget after so many years. This is freaky.
What I don't get is how manual press operators today need to use two hands to apply the labels. Real men always did it with one hand - left hand for lower label and right hand for top label - at the same time. There's a saving of one second and a saving of another second if you have the vinyl puck ready - not that we ever did it... we always took the puck fresh off the extruder.
H1 (Heat Cycle 1) can start as soon as the record is removed. If I remember correctly, H2 (pressing before admission of cooling water) is about 2 seconds. The more I read on this forum the more I realise just how much you forget after so many years. This is freaky.
-
montalbano
- Posts: 142
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:03 pm
- Location: Settala (MI), Italy
- Contact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gcw-upZh3wandybee wrote:mmmh, a perfect running 702 with 12bar pressures can make 15seconds, I can´t believe this for 7inch.... but why not, is there any video there?
Have a look at 4:04 but start earlier so you can check the timer! =)
The video changes to another scene right when the record is being unloaded. Say 15.2? Can't remember. It was filmed more than one year ago.
Recently we have bought one set of new moulds, with a different profile, in order to make thicker 7" records and it now takes about 16-17 seconds.
Please note that you need a small accumulator to achieve that speed, it is not just a matter of steam.
Phil from Phono Press, Milan, Italy
http://www.phonopress.it
http://www.phonopress.it
Cross purposes here I think
Beiber Osborne & my post relates to manual machines
Andy be and you are talking of an auto press
15 seconds hard to maintain on any auto 702 with no interuptions for whatever reason 16-18 is most likely the practical range
Manual press regardless of brand or molds hard to see much under 20s
Most likely 20-25
For production schedules We assume 2 a minute for 7" records
That works across the board in
Cheers
Beiber Osborne & my post relates to manual machines
Andy be and you are talking of an auto press
15 seconds hard to maintain on any auto 702 with no interuptions for whatever reason 16-18 is most likely the practical range
Manual press regardless of brand or molds hard to see much under 20s
Most likely 20-25
For production schedules We assume 2 a minute for 7" records
That works across the board in
Cheers
Chris
why not compare manual and auto presses, this information
is always important for your daily time calculation...
15sec on a manual, while reading the newspaper is really possible for sure,
but I think, the operator has done this for years, and he can also
sleep when pressing records.... (if there is no technical interruption).
When we started in Lindau, we had a 702 cycle of 34seconds (cooling water 34degrees celsius, VERY slow hydraulics, low pressure steam), but it works stable....
nowadays I won´t work like that anymore, more time
for drinking beer
1000x 7" records with 34seconds = 9-10 hours
1000x 7" records with 15seconds = 4.5 hours.... so....
is always important for your daily time calculation...
15sec on a manual, while reading the newspaper is really possible for sure,
but I think, the operator has done this for years, and he can also
sleep when pressing records.... (if there is no technical interruption).
When we started in Lindau, we had a 702 cycle of 34seconds (cooling water 34degrees celsius, VERY slow hydraulics, low pressure steam), but it works stable....
nowadays I won´t work like that anymore, more time
for drinking beer
1000x 7" records with 34seconds = 9-10 hours
1000x 7" records with 15seconds = 4.5 hours.... so....
And when was it the last time that you have run a manual press producing records to order Andy???
Yes I do remember you starting days where you argued about accumulators using up electricity as well as low consumption energy systems
as well as that toy of a hydraulic pump you posted up suggesting that it will save money Mmmmm
But you must admit that the Certus gnerated Best German steam has to be the major factor in this Andy No?
I only had a smirk saying to myself: Well he find out soon enough
You obviously have
But its taken 3-4 years and a few shifts of plant
Now you can read the newspaper drink beer as well while the 7"s are popping out Fast
Cheers
Yes I do remember you starting days where you argued about accumulators using up electricity as well as low consumption energy systems
as well as that toy of a hydraulic pump you posted up suggesting that it will save money Mmmmm
But you must admit that the Certus gnerated Best German steam has to be the major factor in this Andy No?
I only had a smirk saying to myself: Well he find out soon enough
You obviously have
But its taken 3-4 years and a few shifts of plant
Now you can read the newspaper drink beer as well while the 7"s are popping out Fast
Cheers
Chris
You are 100% correct We just do not have a clue
For Myself, I know Australian, New Zealand, Italian, English and American steam quite well, first hand experience, no second hand accounts whatsoever
Any personal experience with German steam So far, has eluded me
Alas! I have no fear as there is time yet to experience the wonders of this unique phenomenon of the Steimemaster at work something I am eagerly waiting for the experience of this all revealing wonder
It seems by all accounts, steam by the Certus boiler Only available on the land of the Teutonic Knights is quite unique as applied to the manufacture of phonograph records
I am sure numerous other applications could also derive benefits, some examples posted here by the Certus guys out there will confirm the extraordinary characteristics of German Steam
We will wait for some input on this guys
Cheers
Alto Cumulus
For Myself, I know Australian, New Zealand, Italian, English and American steam quite well, first hand experience, no second hand accounts whatsoever
Any personal experience with German steam So far, has eluded me
Alas! I have no fear as there is time yet to experience the wonders of this unique phenomenon of the Steimemaster at work something I am eagerly waiting for the experience of this all revealing wonder
It seems by all accounts, steam by the Certus boiler Only available on the land of the Teutonic Knights is quite unique as applied to the manufacture of phonograph records
I am sure numerous other applications could also derive benefits, some examples posted here by the Certus guys out there will confirm the extraordinary characteristics of German Steam
We will wait for some input on this guys
Cheers
Alto Cumulus
Chris
-
Flight13_duplication
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:20 am
well, i do not know anything about international steam, but my certuss boiler is the only machine here that works for hours without any problems.
This machine must be a man, while i am shure that my old ttt press was a lady....
but i am pressing lps right now. boring. One minute each record. this is the last time i am pressing a 200 run on my own unless i have an automatic press. 3 hours work. no fun at all.
good to have internet here...
This machine must be a man, while i am shure that my old ttt press was a lady....
but i am pressing lps right now. boring. One minute each record. this is the last time i am pressing a 200 run on my own unless i have an automatic press. 3 hours work. no fun at all.
good to have internet here...
