EMI MC-4B Lathe Photo.

[Soulbear]

Hi Trolls,
A single Photograph of this Historic Lathe, located in Athens Greece which is currently for sale on the ubiquitous Bay, and which really is deserving of a place, and ought to be in the Science Museum. The very first Stereo Cutterhead???? :-

EMI Lathe.jpg

The Bay Blurb :- "Gravity powered, it has the most constant DC power source on the earth, the mass of the earth itself. A weight is descending to power the rotation of the platter. It had been stored protectively. Sold as is due to age. A heavy milestone in the history of electronic recording by Allan Blumlein and EMI".
Regards Soulbear

[Gus]

is it listed on ebay?

[Soulbear]

Hi Gus,
Yup, sure is, it's listed as :- EMI M.C.4B Blumlein 78 Records Disc Cutting Lathe Recorder before Neumann Scully
This link is to the Wiki entry on "The Inventor of Stereo" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Blumlein
Regards Soulbear

[Stevie342000]

It most certainly is listed as stated, just checked, however there are a number of questions I have.

Why would that item be in Greece, it is my understanding that it was a one off, built at Hayes.

It is my understanding that all said equipment is in the EMI archive/museum in Hayes.

It was experimental work so why would it be in Greece? It makes no sense. The results of the work as a one off were the patents.

[Gus]

[Vimeo https://vimeo.com/18019608 /Vimeo]

[YouTube2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZdHd1ZqRKA/ YouTube2]

[Soulbear]

Hi Gus,

Stevie 342000 raises some important points, and quite serious issues here. Might a better place for this Post on the Forum, be the "Caveat Emptor" Section?? I immediately recognised this as an Historic Artefact, and as I pointed out in my first Post, it really deserves to be in a Museum. As Stevie342000 quite rightly points out, such equipment is usually Archived at the EMI Museum in Hayes, so is this a Scam??? I think the existence in Greece of this MC-4B Lathe, needs to be verified before any money changed hands. Food for thought eh??
Regards Soulbear

[Stevie342000]

Pretty sure that there is a link to the EMI Archive and Museum on their website, you can visit it by appointment only, would a quick email to them not elicit the answer?

I have too many other pressing issues to deal with but it is my opinion that said work by Blumlein lies in the EMI Archive at Hayes. There should be only one of them as well, as it was original research work carried out at Hayes works by Blumlein.

Or an email to the British Library Sound Archive department should additionally elicit the answer.

Interesting looking machine though it looks like the cutter head is static and the actual platter moves on a sled.

[Gus]

This lathe have serial number 18
at 90% i'm sure the lathe was stored at Columbia records here in Athens.
watch the videos to understand what happens when Columbia closed in 1991

EMI Lathe.jpg

[Gus]

As you can see at the attachment photo the seller does not ship it to Greece
if you sell a lathe local pickup is your first choice.

ebay.jpg

[Soulbear]

Hi Gus,
The Plot Thickens, as you've pointed this out, that the Seller does not Ship to Greece, but immediately beneath that in the Ebay Listing, it states the item is Located in Greece!! What gives??? A most curious Sale (Or NOT!!) Caveat Emptor.
Regards Soulbear

[Stevie342000]

I saw the serial number when this was first posted, I suspect it is a mis-list as it is not a stereo cutter head as listed or stereo cutting lathe. As there would only be one of those and that sits in the EMI archive.

This is the mono lathe that Blumlein invented to get around the patents for which he was commissioned to do work on. Date is right EMI Greece opened in 1930 at the time that EMI became EMI. We know what happened when the studio in Greece was shut, that adds nothing to the validity of the item (unless there is paperwork that supports that).

It is not the stereo cutter head in my opinion there is still only one of those as the work was not continued and remained in the vaults until the 1950s, when EMI remembered that they had held the patent. The item as listed more than likely exists but unless some one can go and see it and say it exists then nothing can be certain, however there is always risk involved in items listed for sale in that the are not quite what they are being listed at by a person who has little knowledge of what they are selling or how it works or if it even works. Anything of this age will need repair, parts will be hard to find but it does look interesting.

That lesson go and see the item or see ask for pictures of the item should be a lesson learned from the Scully lathe for free fiasco recently.

You will need the electronics that goes with this each head was tuned in circuit, you may be able to get copies of the circuits or manual (if it existed) from the EMI archive or arrange to visit the archive, beware that it costs money and this would not be a cheap project. I would rather see the item sell than it to end up as scrap or landfill.

Having just looked at the eBay listing again, there is no mention of stereo cutter head in the listing, the two round bits (forgive the technical terms) are the electromagnets, rare earth magnets were some way off in the future at this point and the only way (from memory of reading the blurb on Blumlein and mono and stereo recording patents) that that was what was used.

It's not a stereo head that is a mono headed Blumlein design original EMI cutting lathe circa 1930, if I remember rightly that head was in use right up until about 1950.

[Gus]

Hi Gus,
The Plot Thickens, as you've pointed this out, that the Seller does not Ship to Greece, but immediately beneath that in the Ebay Listing, it states the item is Located in Greece!! What gives??? A most curious Sale (Or NOT!!) Caveat Emptor.
Regards Soulbear

I send to seller a private message via ebay if he accept local pickup but didn't receive any answer from him

[Stevie342000]

Hi Gus,
The Plot Thickens, as you've pointed this out, that the Seller does not Ship to Greece, but immediately beneath that in the Ebay Listing, it states the item is Located in Greece!! What gives??? A most curious Sale (Or NOT!!) Caveat Emptor.
Regards Soulbear

This may be of more use, https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=B2z2ONO7nBQC&pg=PA112&lpg=PA112&dq=EMI+Blumlein+Disc+Cutting+Lathe&source=bl&ots=spJvnsrnlF&sig=RCqJFGZWrmMS_TYkaCKYxTp9_Ys&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwin9eevweLPAhUHB8AKHcIXCjEQ6AEILjAD#v=onepage&q=EMI%20Blumlein%20Disc%20Cutting%20Lathe&f=false

[Soulbear]

Hi Gus,

d to seller a private message via ebay if he accept local pickup but didn't receive any answer from him

In Light of what Stevie342000 said I'm not at all surprised :-

That lesson go and see the item or see ask for pictures of the item should be a lesson learned from the Scully lathe for free fiasco recently.

Hi Stevie3420000,
Not Stereo eh? I find myself in agreement with you. that seems much more likely, now that you mention it. In the initial post, being unsure, I suffixed the "Very First Stereo Cutterhead" with a few Question Marks. The Cutterhead (If that's what it is??) does at first glance appear to have the 2 Transducer Coils that would be needed for Stereo Recording. The closing statement on the listing IE :-
A heavy milestone in the history of electronic recording by Allan Blumlein and EMI. is somewhat misleading and a bit of a "Red Herring" too. As we know, Blumlein developed quite a number of Inventions, Ultra Linear Amp, Long Tailed Pair etc etc, but is probably best remembered for his "Stereo" Invention, so for this advertiser to cite this "Heavy Milestone in Electronic Recording" as part of the Blurb, it is I think, an intentional ploy to Mis-direct at best, and "Outright Deceive" at worst. Either way, at nearly 90 years old, this EMI Lathe ought to be in a Museum, and as I've also previously said, "Caveat Emptor"
Regards
Soulbear

[Stevie342000]

It is in my opinion based on Blumlein's work, the MC4B is mentioned in the book link and that dates it at the earliest for that modification to 1932, which is not long after the Greek EMI Studios opened. Oh this modification has rubber in the cutter head for damping and it is suggested that this is a portable model. I would think that EMI and/or the British Science Museum has one of these in their vaults. EMI certainly has the prototype MC cutter head by Blumlein again cited in the book article on Blumlein. The MC4 only goes up to 7 kHz the original model went up to 11 kHz, which for 1930 was not at all bad.

The reason I suspect that Gus did not get a reply is that he is in Greece and that is one of the countries listed as not having the item shipped to even though it is in Greece, if I was the seller I would not answer that either.

Can not remember if there was a MC 3 model, see article, it is however interesting that the Sugden cutter head is labeled as MC5, coincidence or did he make 4 earlier versions before he filled his patent. Only he would know and none of these people are around to ask any more and not many are still living that were around in that era that knew any of these people first hand. First hand knowledge is going to be hard to find most of the recording equipment with the further passing of years.

I do not think there is anything to worry about with this auction, it is no surprise that this sat in one of the store rooms forgotten about thankfully it was saved, it will sell but for how much and when nobody knows. It is pure collectors and really in my opinion should not be bought to be turned into something that is more functional for today, unless you can get hold of the original EMI modifications.

[Gus]

The reason I suspect that Gus did not get a reply is that he is in Greece and that is one of the countries listed as not having the item shipped to even though it is in Greece, if I was the seller I would not answer that either.

The lathe located in Athens and the seller does not want to sold it to serious Athenian buyer with 100% positive feedback?
interesting...
I had sold many Reel to Reel tape recorders on ebay who weights 20+ kilos and of course my first choice is local pickup or to send it in rest of Greece via courier van.
I don't Know...
Good luck!

[Soulbear]

Hi Trolls,


Further to my initial Post, the Ebay "Seller" has now included more Photos of this EMI Lathe, which I've now Downloaded into this PDF, Enjoy :-

EMI Lathe Photo's.pdf

(Edit- I've Pe-Posted these Photographs here, so there are not 2 Threads about the same Item, thereby allowing the Moderators to delete what is considered to be, the Superfluous/Duplicated Thread - Regards, Soulbear)


Now I've had a look at more detail, I agree even more with Stevie342000, that this is a most probably a Mono Cutterhead. I'm further speculating that the Cylinder Shaped Components, are 2 Huge "Potted Coil" Electro-Magnets which look to form a Powerful Base "Magnetic Circuit" with Audio within the "Voice Coil" Boosting or Opposing the Flux provided by said Coils to Vibrate the Stylus. This function being accomplished in later designs, with "Horseshoe" Type Magnets
Regards Soulbear

Posts: 249
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:56 pm

[Stevie342000]

Hi Trolls,


Further to my initial Post, the Ebay "Seller" has now included more Photos of this EMI Lathe, which I've now Downloaded into this PDF, Enjoy :-

EMI Lathe Photo's.pdf

(Edit- I've Pe-Posted these Photographs here, so there are not 2 Threads about the same Item, thereby allowing the Moderators to delete what is considered to be, the Superfluous/Duplicated Thread - Regards, Soulbear)


Now I've had a look at more detail, I agree even more with Stevie342000, that this is a most probably a Mono Cutterhead. I'm further speculating that the Cylinder Shaped Components, are 2 Huge "Potted Coil" Electro-Magnets which look to form a Powerful Base "Magnetic Circuit" with Audio within the "Voice Coil" Boosting or Opposing the Flux provided by said Coils to Vibrate the Stylus. This function being accomplished in later designs, with "Horseshoe" Type Magnets
Regards Soulbear

Posts: 249
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:56 pm

As stated rare earth magnets were some way off when these were fashioned, loudspeakers at that time use field magnets. In the book article mentioned in previous post, EMI did have alnico magnets fashioned as well. It would have been standard practice then to use field coils. I mentioned in the article that 1.7 T was not strong enough a field.

Interesting that the head is fixed on the EMI machine I know that the Decca cutter head used a 12 lb weight to counterbalance the weight of the head in or around 1944.

It would be interesting to see what the user manual looked like for this, there would have been an in-house EMI document for the cutting engineers. It would cover basic functions, known issues and how to resolve them and much much more.

You can figure on how big that head is if that is a 16" platter, it must have cost a small fortune to make, well over engineered.

[jesusfwrl]

Okay, some local lathetrolls had a better look at this.
Still waiting for some definite answers from some people which we haven't been able to contact yet.

According to local collective wisdom among fellow trolls, this particular machine has never been seen by anyone in Greece. But, there are also private collectors, that we would not necessarily know about. This means that it is very likely that this machine has nothing to do with Columbia or EMI in Greece.

I hope we will soon find out more.

Furthermore, the ebay seller "Aetoulis" is blocking Greek ebay users from being able to view his listings. But, this is what proxys are for...
Among his other listings you will find plenty of unreasonable overpriced items as well as unreasonable underpriced items, none of which can be identified yet as ever having existed in Greek professional facilities.
This item clearly stands out: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pleiades-Inductor-High-Pass-Filter-for-Telefunken-Elam-251-microphone-pultec-EQ-/331996664825?hash=item4d4c8b13f9:g:-wkAAOSw5ZBWKNpx
Anyone looking for a single toroidal inductor high pass filter for USD1400? Well, he is selling one!
He seems to run a company called "Pleiades". No official website, or blog, and the company is not known in Greece.

No definite answers yet, but I would strongly advice requesting to see this item in person before you attempt to buy it.

[Soulbear]

Hi There,

According to local collective wisdom among fellow trolls, this particular machine has never been seen by anyone in Greece.

The Plot Thickens, as you've pointed this out, that the Seller does not Ship to Greece, but immediately beneath that in the Ebay Listing, it states the item is Located in Greece!! What gives??? A most curious Sale (Or NOT!!) Caveat Emptor.

As with the Angulo Thread also, I really must commend you on your Sterling and Most Excellent "Detection & Sleuthing Skills" Sherlock errr.. Jesus Te He!! Regards Soulbear