WTB Lathe-Seeking Advice + Knowledge [+ crucial digressions]

[ajroach42]

Thanks for all the info guys.


I looked over the wiki pages, and read through them all (and even managed to score a book from the goodwill that I have been reading.)

I'm trolling the antique stores, flea markets, and thrift stores looking for some gear. (I actually passed up a great looking Rek-O-Kut a few years back, because I didn't know what I would do with it. Stupid stupid stupid.)

In the mean time, I'd really appreciate it if anyone would keep me in mind if they find any units for sale.
(and if anyone else has anything to add, I'd appreciate that too!)


If I've understood correctly, I'm going to max out at ~15 minutes per side, provided that I can even get a 256 thread feed screw, right?


Also, many of the files listed on the wiki point to dead links. Specifically the manuals for the Presto lathes. Any idea what's up with that?

[piaptk]

It's generally said that cutting half-speed when using experimental materials can produce better results, out of the fact that you are dragging the cutting stylus through the surface a little more gracefully. It treats uneven and sloppy discs with more care, and does produce better results in "less desirable" material. I have tried it myself and have achieved better results with x-rays.

I've never done half speed mastering while embossing on Poly, but I can definitely attest to slower speeds garnering better results. Not only speed (33 vs 45 vs 78), but also radial velocity (inside of record sounds better than outside). My 5"s sound so much better than the start of my LPs. Not only does it sound better, but they track better on playback when embossed at slower speeds.

I would be very interested to know exactly how you are cutting x-rays. I tried it on and off since I started cutting and have never had anything even remotely resembling success.

[Steve E.]

If I've understood correctly, I'm going to max out at ~15 minutes per side, provided that I can even get a 256 thread feed screw, right?

I owe you an email, sorry. Let's touch base.

In the meantime.....no, you can get more running time, if you sacrifice some sound quality. For 33 1/3, you should be able to get close to 25 minutes at 256 lpi, though you'd have to cut a less deep groove and far less loud signal (esp bass). A crude rule of thumb for max cutting time is to divide the LPI by 10. So 256 = ~25.5 min, 160 lpi =~16 min, and so on. That might be slightly generous, and your last couple of minutes will suffer in fidelity.

Here are some graphs:

https://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=824

You'll notice that the "conservative" graph tends to shave a minute off my rule of thumb, especially as you move up in LPI.

[ajroach42]

I owe you an email, sorry. Let's touch base.

...

Here are some graphs:

https://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=824

You'll notice that the "conservative" graph tends to shave a minute off my rule of thumb, especially as you move up in LPI.

No worries. You don't need to get in a hurry for me. Lord knows I don't get in a hurry over anything.


The graphs make it appear that there is a way to effect the density of the grooves in a record other than the feedscrew. Could you point me toward a resource with a bit more information on this? I was under the impression that the feedscrew was kind of an absolute in those regards.


I'm sorry if the information I seek is in the posts you linked me to. I will be reading through that shortly.

[Steve E.]

The graphs make it appear that there is a way to effect the density of the grooves in a record other than the feedscrew.

In a way, the LPI (lines/inch) are an absolute in terms of time, for a given turntable speed. But yes and but yet, there are 4 different graphs that give you different times per LPI. The factors to consider:

1) How close to the outer edge are you actually starting your cut, and how long is the lead-in spiral? Some cutters will not put grooves on the outer half inch of a dubplate out of fear of chipping their cutting stylus. That will impact total cutting time. (This is not a problem on an oversized master lacquer, where the cut is started outside the contour of the eventual pressed record.)

2) How wide are the gaps between the songs, and how many gaps are there? The gaps have a lower LPI, and they reduce available cutting time.

3) How close to the center of the record are you going to cut? The RIAA standard for a 33 1/3 rpm 12" record is 4.75 inches, but: a) you can certainly cut closer to the center and b) you may not WANT to cut that close because of the reduction in sound quality. (Less high end, more groove distortion).

http://www.aardvarkmastering.com/riaa.htm

The higher the LPI, the narrower the dimensions of the actual groove (which is to say, it must be cut shallower, and it must have a quieter signal = less modulation.)

[shawnrbritton]

I have a bulletin form Neumann where they discourage half speed cutting for two reasons. It doesn't really have a tremendously noticeable effect. And, you loose the lower octave. Straight from the horses mouth.

Hey Todd,

While I can certainly appreciate attempting to further knowledge on this valuable forum, there are a couple of things going on here that I wish to take exception to.
Firstly, (is that a word?) Halfspeed mastering does indeed have a “noticeable effect”. I myself have cut over 60 kHz to lacquer with our system. I never was a math major, but I believe that’s over 120 kHz in real-time playback.
For an interesting article on how this discovery came about during a mastering session, please read Dave Glackin’s excellent piece in Positive Feedback Online: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue2/mastering.htm

Secondly, “loosing the bottom octave”. Sweet Jeebus. I’m not even going to address this.

Propagating this kind of misinformation only fuels the ignorant reviewers and internet trolls (sometimes the same people, I’m convinced!). Look, the interweb is like a vast echo chamber. Lazy people reiterate poorly researched information as “facts” and this garbage gets endlessly repeated.
Look, you can post whatever you like on your attempts to cut Halfspeed. That’s your prerogative. However, just because I’ve driven a car over 120 MPH, I’m not going to speculate what it’s like to drive at NASCAR events. I leave that up to the professionals.

I’d love to see that bulletin from Neumann that you refer to, but I don’t think that it’s “straight from the horse's mouth”. I suspect that it’s from somewhere south of there.

I really enjoy this forum. It’s often fun, always enlightening, and sometimes aggravating.
Like my first wife.

SRB

[mossboss]

Hey SRB
I can assure you that is straight from the horses mouth
An original letter from Neumann of which I also have a copy
I am sure Todd will post it up as your comments are a bit harsh
I would have thought Todd would be the last person to post up untruths
It is certainly not hear say or from the south wherever that is in your view we are in Australia and that is very very south it certainly not from here.
It is well north of here originating in Germany mate
It seems to me that Gotham themselves pushed the issue as it meant more sales since there was a stream of enquiries about it to them
It also seems that Neumann ultimately relented but I have yet to see anything historical or other ways that they supported half speed cutting
Studer also made a digital box that had a half speed cutting facility on it a real early A to D conversion all hand made wire wrapped
Got one that makes a great door stop and it is a heavy door indeed
There was and in my view there is still no merit in so far as a better cut doing it at half speed
It was also the case on the mater in so far as Neumann was concerned and the circular certainly addressed that in no uncertain terms
By the way Stan Ricker in a long drawn out article somewhere in the inter-web suggest's that he has cut at 120 kHz plus with an SX 74. From a tape master that had a bias on it at around that frequency which the head picked up
Another member here suggested that he has seen a similar pattern on a lacquer as described by Stan a rainbow light diffracting pattern as he called it but certainly not audible or of any improvement on the cut
I am sure there is a thread here I posted on the issue as well as the reply of a well known cutter
In many years of cutting while sticking to the rules I have yet to see anything reaching the 20's let alone beyond that but than again I have not seen of heard everything have I.
At around 15-20,000 sides I would have thought it was about time that I would have come across something like that alas it has eluded me so far
In my view from a well tuned lathe doing a standard cut as against a half speed which is relatively easy to do there is no audible difference whatsoever
Argh well there is time yet He He

[Steve E.]

Hello all,

Let's welcome Shawn R Britton to the forum. I know it's in the middle of another discussion and I might splice this out later into its own thread, but let's get some context here.

Shawn is the Senior Mastering Engineer at Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab, and Stan Ricker is his mentor. So his opinion about half-speed mastering, whether or not you agree with it, is one based on pretty darn deep convictions and more experience than almost anyone on the planet.

I must profess that I have not heard MFSL's recent releases. (I hear good things). I will say, however, that Mobile Fidelity's half-speed mastered Beatles LP releases in the 1980s (mastered by Stan Ricker and sometimes Jack Hunt) were a revelation to me at the time. In my opinion, they still trump every other LP release. I own the MFSL White Album LP release, and it's pretty much the only version of that album I ever listen to (and, as it is my fave album, I listen to it a lot). I heard every one of the others MFSL Beatle LPs, from the "tape box" box set; my college library had them. The difference is not subtle. The two things that were quite striking to me at the time were the stereo separation -- much wider than the UK Blue Box LPs I knew by heart-- and the astounding bass. I remember listening to "Norwegian Wood" on headphones with a friend, and our jaws dropped at a low note near the songs' end that we had never heard before. I remember, in terms of separation, some remarkable double-tracked drum effects on, I think, "Carry That Weight" that were not audible on any prior LP version. This was before any CD releases of these albums....and I think they actually sound a lot better than many or most of the 1987 CDs. (I have not heard the remastered stereo CDs.)

I'm certainly no expert in half-speed mastering, and I don't know the precise process that lead to those particular albums sounding so good. I've heard some on the Hoffman board complain about a smiley EQ on them. I don't think I ever noticed it (or, at worst, I might have re-adjusted a treble control very slightly compared to the settings I used for other LPs??). In my opinion --and its an opinion based on a LOT of comparison-- they sound phenomenal. (The only lesser release was Magical Mystery Tour, which, I could tell even then, used a high generation, leadered, UK dub that was missing the original segues, also missing from the later CDs. It's an American comp of UK singles and EPs, and therefore has better masters elsewhere. But I digress.)

Anyway, welcome, SRB, and I truly hope you stick around! I don't mean to shut down people who disagree, but I hope we can all duke it out respectfully, and benefit from the discussions without people getting too sore. I for one would love to learn more about half-speed mastering, and I know I am not alone.

[Steve E.]

As a subset of this discussion....

Keep in mind the 1970s era CD4 Quad LP system. (again, wish we still had CD4cutter aka Greg B. contributing....) That system required a decoding carrier frequency that was well out of audible hearing range. (Anyone know the frequency used? I don't) I believe half speed cutting was required to achieve that.

[mossboss]

Lets just say that if half speed mastering is so superior regardless every cut would be done at half speed
And is this the case? Surely not.
Just about every one has the ability to do it on a VMS
At the end of the day a maxi cut record done here down under on the Beatles tracks sounds far superior than any other done elsewhere and it was not done at half speed either.
Lets not forget all the hoo ha about DMM and al that
It is a fact that low frequencies are certainly lacking in any DMM cut but that did not stop all the marketing hype did it
Cheers

[markrob]

Lets just say that if half speed mastering is so superior regardless every cut would be done at half speed
And is this the case? Surely not.
Just about every one has the ability to do it on a VMS
At the end of the day a maxi cut record done here down under on the Beatles tracks sounds far superior than any other done elsewhere and it was not done at half speed either.
Lets not forget all the hoo ha about DMM and al that
It is a fact that low frequencies are certainly lacking in any DMM cut but that did not stop all the marketing hype did it
Cheers

Hi Chris,

I don't think your argument holds and water (if it was better everybody would be doing it). There are some clear advantages to the half speed process, but are they worth it to the extent that you go through the process of modding you signal chain to make this possible? I've never worked in a mastering house, but I would think it more fun to cut at 1X rather than having to listen to slowed down audio all day (not to mention the reduction in throughput). It seems to me that you have to commit to the process across the board to make it work professionally when mastering at half speed. If the results are only marginally better (nice for the small segment of consumers who brand themselves as audiophiles), it may not be a mainstream path to pursue.

What is the technical reason(s) that DMM lacks bass response?

As far as Todd's original comments on the half speed mastering process; they were very much in error. I'm sure that there is a Neumann document on the subject, but I doubt its the final word.

Mark

[Steve E.]

I renamed this thread to make the title a little less generic, because it has wandered in several cool digressive directions.

[shawnrbritton]

Howdy MossBoss,
I'm going to try to respond to your points (while I take a sandwich break) if I can, but first a shout-out to Steve for the welcome...hey, thanks my friend!
Please pardon the formatting, this will make it easier to respond. Assume that all statements are done with a grin. Most of my statements are, unless I’m by the side of the road speaking to the California Highway Patrol. Even then I try to get a smile out of the officer, but I think they take classes in appearing serious at all times.

I have a bulletin form Neumann where they discourage half speed cutting for two reasons. It doesn't really have a tremendously noticeable effect. And, you loose the lower octave. Straight from the horses mouth.

Hey Todd,

While I can certainly appreciate attempting to further knowledge on this valuable forum, there are a couple of things going on here that I wish to take exception to.
Firstly, (is that a word?) Halfspeed mastering does indeed have a “noticeable effect”. I myself have cut over 60 kHz to lacquer with our system. I never was a math major, but I believe that’s over 120 kHz in real-time playback.
For an interesting article on how this discovery came about during a mastering session, please read Dave Glackin’s excellent piece in Positive Feedback Online: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue2/mastering.htm

Secondly, “loosing the bottom octave”. Sweet Jeebus. I’m not even going to address this.

Propagating this kind of misinformation only fuels the ignorant reviewers and internet trolls (sometimes the same people, I’m convinced!). Look, the interweb is like a vast echo chamber. Lazy people reiterate poorly researched information as “facts” and this garbage gets endlessly repeated.
Look, you can post whatever you like on your attempts to cut Halfspeed. That’s your prerogative. However, just because I’ve driven a car over 120 MPH, I’m not going to speculate what it’s like to drive at NASCAR events. I leave that up to the professionals.

I’d love to see that bulletin from Neumann that you refer to, but I don’t think that it’s “straight from the horse's mouth”. I suspect that it’s from somewhere south of there.

I really enjoy this forum. It’s often fun, always enlightening, and sometimes aggravating.
Like my first wife.

SRB

Hey SRB
I can assure you that is straight from the horses mouth

1. (SRB) No doubt it is. I was attempting humor by pointing out that I believe that it originated from the southern end of a northbound horse. (More questionable humor)

An original letter from Neumann of which I also have a copy
2. (SRB) Hey great. I’d love to see it posted.

I am sure Todd will post it up as your comments are a bit harsh
3. (SRB) I never intended my comments to be harsh, hence the smiley faces and goofy parenthetical statements.

I would have thought Todd would be the last person to post up untruths
4. (SRB) I don't know Todd well enough to have an opinion on his capabilities. I myself, however, am an avowed skeptic and understand that point of view. I am also prepared to be called out if I am mistaken. I've been told I was wrong before...I was married, remember? (Humor)

It is certainly not hear say or from the south wherever that is in your view we are in Australia and that is very very south it certainly not from here.
5. (SRB) See point #1. This was a failed attempt at humor, unless you are being humorous and now I have a failed attempt at recognizing humor as well. (Humor?)

It is well north of here originating in Germany mate
6. (SRB) Yep. Humor. Caught that one.

It seems to me that Gotham themselves pushed the issue as it meant more sales since there was a stream of enquiries about it to them
7. (SRB) That’s interesting. I’d like to see those communications, both “to” and “from” Gotham.

It also seems that Neumann ultimately relented but I have yet to see anything historical or other ways that they supported half speed cutting
8. (SRB) Me neither (humor).

Studer also made a digital box that had a half speed cutting facility on it a real early A to D conversion all hand made wire wrapped
9. (SRB) Really? What was this thing called?

Got one that makes a great door stop and it is a heavy door indeed
10. (SRB) You might get more use out of it in the back of your truck for traction in the mud. I’m too lazy to get out and change the hubs, so I haul outdated audio gear around. We’ve got lots of it here, ostensibly to play outdated masters for reissue (more humor).

There was and in my view there is still no merit in so far as a better cut doing it at half speed
11. (SRB) That is, of course, your opinion and you’re welcome to it. That being said, you know what opinions are like, dontcha? (Humor). Here’s a hypothetical, though. Considering the incredible frequency response of a trumpet with a Harmon mute, is there no merit to reproducing 30 kHz? Was there no merit to cutting the carrier frequency for Quadraphonic steering (leaving off the question of whether or not you like failed formats)? (Humor…feeble attempt)

It was also the case on the mater in so far as Neumann was concerned and the circular certainly addressed that in no uncertain terms
12. (SRB) I don’t understand your point on the first half of this statement. No doubt about the Neumann circular. I’d love to see it.

By the way Stan Ricker in a long drawn out article somewhere in the inter-web suggest's that he has cut at 120 kHz plus with an SX 74. From a tape master that had a bias on it at around that frequency which the head picked up
13. (SRB) I believe I included a link to that very article in my previous poat. I have come across very similar circumstances over the years...


Another member here suggested that he has seen a similar pattern on a lacquer as described by Stan a rainbow light diffracting pattern as he called it but certainly not audible or of any improvement on the cut
14. (SRB) No doubt on all counts.

I am sure there is a thread here I posted on the issue as well as the reply of a well known cutter
15. (SRB) How about a link?

In many years of cutting while sticking to the rules I have yet to see anything reaching the 20's let alone beyond that but than again I have not seen of heard everything have I.
16. (SRB) No doubt you have not seen anything reaching the 20’s. Because we have wideband frequency response, we run into all sorts of issues that other people filter out. I do not want this to seem condescending in any way. It is merely a statement of fact.

At around 15-20,000 sides I would have thought it was about time that I would have come across something like that alas it has eluded me so far
17. (SRB) That is a shedload of sides, for sure. I aspire to that, but doubt that I’ll ever work that fast for that long to achieve those kinda numbers. I caught the ironic humor at the end, though.

In my view from a well tuned lathe doing a standard cut as against a half speed which is relatively easy to do there is no audible difference whatsoever
18. (SRB) Well, that’s your view, Boss. Come on up to Northern California and I’ll set up a shootout for you. We’re in the Wine Country (Sonoma County rivals Napa County any day except in overpriced spas). I’ll even get you set up for complimentary wine tasting. No joke, big smile.

Argh well there is time yet He He
19. (SRB) Ah, time. As Abe Lincoln said, “The best thing about the future is that it comes one day at a time”. Until it doesn’t (SRB final attempt at humor)

Thanks for the dialog MossBoss,

SRB

[mossboss]

Hey mate I love it
Really great debate that's for sure
Now I have to go and find that circular from Neumann, who knows where it is as we recently moved the plant still in a bit of a mess with bits and pieces every where and anywhere
By the way I have spend considerable time in the wine valleys in your part of the world
Great spots indeed I also have a daughter who lives around there
I may not be able to set you a shoot out but any time for a trip at the Yarra valley wine country as well as the Pyrenees and heathcote all within say 50 miles from CBD for tasting or getting wasted on the yarra whites or the reds which are produced there no problem. Cleansing ale afterwards a requirement and some great craft beers around my part of the woods with like six breweries within walking distance
Check it out on the net.
Todd where are you with it mate ?.
Mark, thanks it is always a good thing when you chip in Ill take your comments as stated
To your question it is really simple
The excursion of the cutting stylus on lacquer can be as much as 34 degrees or a bit more where with the very best copper plates one would be lucky to get past 32
And that is on a very good hard copper prior to the deposit re crystallising
In essence a copper out of the plating baths and into the cutting room within a few hours quite impractical
Most DMM cuts today struggle to get past 30 odd degrees therefore no low end response from the cut therefore the resulting record lacks bottom end. Great for classical stuff, hard low end stuff on rock! Forget it
If the cutting guy pushes the boundaries the chip looks like a chain from a chainsaw the cut is useless the Chip is monitored very carefully so as to make sure it does not get to that, parameters are adjusted on the test cut so as to get the best out of that particular plate
Plating or heavy deposition for Copper masters have in the past and still today remains a difficult unpredictable process about a 70-80% success rate is considered good
This is not known until the copper gets to the lathe if it cuts well great if not it is discarded for recycling
Cheers

[mossboss]

Her is the link the other poster was Kevin Gray.
Towards the end cheers
https://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1417&p=6208&hilit=Ricker#p6208

[ajroach42]

Wow. An MFSL engineer posted a response to my little question about half speed mastering. Pardon me if I swoon a moment, the few half speed masters that I have are all, almost without exception, leaps and bounds beyond the original releases of the same material.

So, thanks.


This small digression has been enlightening, and I'm really glad to have been a part of it. I have learned that half speed mastering would help in exactly the ways that I thought it would, and also that it would probably be more effort than it is worth considering what I want to do (and the equipment I want to do it on.) Thanks!


Also, Steve, thanks for the explanation on the different factors that can contribute to the length of a side. The things you've said there make a lot of sense, and I'm now absolutely convinced that I need a Presto 6n, coupled with a good mono cutting head (and a reverse feedscrew? or a vacuum system? I'll cross that bridge once I've managed to source the gear, I guess.)

I will be keeping my eyes open (on ebay, and craigslist, and with all the local audio shops and antique stores) for a Presto. I'm getting the feeling though that it will be quite some time before I'll manage to track one down.

Bearing that in mind, what are some more common/easier to source/cheaper system that I could also look for? I'd really like to start practicing, and learning what I can.

I've seen lots of brand names tossed around in various threads, all mentioning one suitcase recorder or another. A local antique store has a Wilcox Gay Recordio (which, according to my research, only cuts wide groove 78s) but I don't think it's in working order (and I don't have the proper gear with which to play back 78s.)


I'm in Marietta/Dallas, Georgia (in case that makes it easier to suggest a common model to look for, or a place that might have some for sale.)

Thanks again everyone, this has been a great experience so far.

[GeorgeZ]

...
Mark, thanks it is always a good thing when you chip in Ill take your comments as stated
To your question it is really simple
The excursion of the cutting stylus on lacquer can be as much as 34 degrees or a bit more where with the very best copper plates one would be lucky to get past 32
And that is on a very good hard copper prior to the deposit re crystallising
In essence a copper out of the plating baths and into the cutting room within a few hours quite impractical
Most DMM cuts today struggle to get past 30 odd degrees therefore no low end response from the cut therefore the resulting record lacks bottom end. Great for classical stuff, hard low end stuff on rock! Forget it
If the cutting guy pushes the boundaries the chip looks like a chain from a chainsaw the cut is useless the Chip is monitored very carefully so as to make sure it does not get to that, parameters are adjusted on the test cut so as to get the best out of that particular plate
Plating or heavy deposition for Copper masters have in the past and still today remains a difficult unpredictable process about a 70-80% success rate is considered good
This is not known until the copper gets to the lathe if it cuts well great if not it is discarded for recycling
Cheers

Hello Chris,

with all the respect to your experience and knowledge, the statement about DMM lacking bass frequencies due to high angles in grooves IS NOT TRUE!

I've just made a geometric simulation at diameter of 130 millimeters (inner grooves, worst parameters for both the cutting and playback).:
50Hz sinus signal with 0 dB NTP (= +6 dBVU) creates deviation of 64 micrometers which transfers to grooves with angles of 5 degrees.
100Hz sinus signal with 0 dB NTP (= +6 dBVU) deviation = 50 micrometers, angles = 7 degrees
100Hz sinus signal with +3 dB NTP (= +9 dBVU), deviation = 70 micrometers, angles = 11 degrees
300Hz sinus signal with +3 dB NTP (= +9 dBVU), deviation = 56 micrometers, angles = 25 degrees

To all cutters: try to cut 300Hz sinus at +3 dB NTP (+9 dBVU) at this diameter and measure the playback distortion with such a high cutting level!

Regards,

[mossboss]

Great. And The comparisson to foil?

[GeorgeZ]

There are two reasons why some DMM cuts may have less bass than lacquer cuts.

1) The source audio contains a lot of low frequencies panned or shift to one channel or completely out-of-phase. Then a lot of vertical modulation occurs. Most DMM blanks have the standard 100um copper layer allowing 35 um of vertical deviation (for the basic 40 um wide groove). The calculation is easy: 35 um up + 35 um down + 20 um basic depth + 10 um as a reserve for not cutting into steel = 100 um totaly. Therefore elliptical equalizers used to be used. The original Neumann SP-79 console supplied with some DMM lathes contains 150Hz EE and 300Hz EE. Also the vertical amplitude limiter (VAL) can do some work.

We can discuss pros and cons regarding the removing of such out-of-phase audio signals (for speakers in clubs and at home it is reasonable, for head-phones it may change perception of stereo), but most mastering engineers/studios require source signals without out-of-phase signals due to problems in both the cutting and later the plating/pressing stage. One disadvantage of DMM is thinner copper layer, therefore less vertical amplitudes allowed.

Many DMM cutters in the past and maybe some cutters up today use 300Hz EE for most audio. Incomplete DMM cuts due to emergency lift offs of their cutter head are additional expenses in DMM blanks and also wasted cutting time.

As you know we at GZ analyze the audio before the cut and run a simulation to know where it is necessary to use our EE (much improved math and options compared to Neuman's EEs) or a vertical amplitude limiter. We know the exact profile of vertical modulation for the whole audio so we can max the cutting level with minimal stereo effect changes.

2) High pass filters used. Many DMM cutters in the past and maybe some cutters up today use 40Hz HT for most audio. They are afraid of too much bass frequencies due to space limits or risk of skipping. If 40um basic width of grooves is used, then there is more risk of mistracking for loud cuts, esp. in bass.

More info from other people who used to cut DMM, Steve Berson and Don Grossinger:
http://repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,24296.msg337192.html
http://recording.org/mastering-engineers-forum/4557-direct-metal-mastering-vs-lacquer-mastering.html
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=392646&page=6&p=4988414&postcount=79

Any debate about overall loudness of records and hot cutting levels would be endless )
And yes, there are different kinds of distortion using loud levels on DMM plates and lacquers...

Maybe our discussion should go to the "Vinyl Mastering, Lacquer cutting, Pro's and others" topic.

[mossboss]

Absolutely correct in every aspect sir apart from the beginning where you are buying insurance with the "may have"
I do know the great work you people have done there over the many years
It is very impressive indeed
The team of which you are a part is absolutely fantastic a real credit to all of you that's for sure
Assuming that DMM did not come to a sudden stop as it did when it was introduced I have no doubt that there would have been enough effort by a lot more people so as to get the copper in a similar state to a lacquer or even surpass it
That has been left to the few people who do plate for their DMM machines which includes your selfs of course
It is very hard to keep on doing R&D for better and better results on your own there comes a point that one says
OK we got a result we can do this now far better than the original so we just keep going if we can improve as we go along fine but we will not dedicate people to this any longer
By the way there is no more glance copper available at least on my searches over the last year or so the suppliers no longer offer the material of choice which gave better results in producing copper blanks
So the alternative also adds another difficulty which of course does not help
At any rate this debate can go on for ever as it has been going on for years past
By the way EE is almost a standard item in all Neumann consoles that ever went with a lathe
It was provided so as to be able to cut in stereo with the resultant record to be able to be played on a mono type cartridge minimising vertical excursion so as to stop the stylus jumping off
Well as we all know this also conserves some real estate on the disc which can be useful in getting a longer playing time
At any rate the 80 and 82 did have the vertical or depth of cut as well as land width control in the rack so the EE become more or less superfluous
You are right this part should be shifted to another section
Best regards
C.