Not trying to tell you any thing my friend But I doubt that you find that someone that will make a new press and low cost material to replace vinyl and all the other things you mentioned quoting my post
Than we can revisit the subject
By the way there is such a thing as a music medium that is modern low cost weighing about 10 grams not very energy hungry produced in high speed machines at a rate of 1000 or more per hour at a cost of 10 cents each and just in case you dont know it is called a CD
So the machine you are talking about is out there mate for the last 30 odd years but it aint a vinyl record
In the mean time we just push on with what we love best pressing Vinyl on old antiquated equipment including cutting on 30-50 yo cutting lathes
It is what it is and it is not the pressing plant that pushes up the price not even the lacquer or the metal work as pointed out in my previous post
By the way lacquer manufacturers in the whole world are reduced to 2 Apollo USA and MDC Japan
So on the lacquer menu in so far as choice it is simple
Take it or Leave it
Having said that what difference would it make on a run of 1000 pressings if the lacquers where to cost $5 instead of $25 each At 4 cents per record I am sure it would not entice the end user to run out to his local record store so as to get a bargain would it?
Cheers
Very good summary Mossboss! Short and to the point.
$60 for the lacquers it takes to master two sides for a vinyl release compared to the typical charge of about $300 for the vinyl mastering. You figure maybe $4-$5 in wear on your stylus. Maybe $20 - $30 worth of your time (going by $80 per hour) to setup the track and get it ready to cut. Set aside maybe $60 for the taxes you pay on your income. Set aside maybe $10 for overhead for your business.
That leaves a whopping $135 to go towards the initial investment in your lathe and its upkeep and also to pay yourself something. So, trust me, vinyl mastering outfits are not raking in cash. Even if we could cut our lacquer expenses we still wouldn't be making a lot. I will likely be reinvesting every penny for some time.
Mastering charges are not high. I think they are right on target. And, hopefully now that you know the breakdown you can see that you are paying for exactly what it takes to put that music on lacquer, no more, no less.
More often than not, when it comes to vinyl these days it is a labor of love. The time for this to be a money maker has come and gone. Everyone involved is giving more than they are financially compensated for. That is all the way up the line from artist to mastering engineer to cutting engineer to plater to pressing facility to distributors to the few remaining records stores to the dj's and collectors playing vinyl. We shouldn't be looking at all this with dollar signs in our eyes. At least that's my two cents!
$60 for the lacquers it takes to master two sides for a vinyl release compared to the typical charge of about $300 for the vinyl mastering. You figure maybe $4-$5 in wear on your stylus. Maybe $20 - $30 worth of your time (going by $80 per hour) to setup the track and get it ready to cut. Set aside maybe $60 for the taxes you pay on your income. Set aside maybe $10 for overhead for your business.
That leaves a whopping $135 to go towards the initial investment in your lathe and its upkeep and also to pay yourself something. So, trust me, vinyl mastering outfits are not raking in cash. Even if we could cut our lacquer expenses we still wouldn't be making a lot. I will likely be reinvesting every penny for some time.
Mastering charges are not high. I think they are right on target. And, hopefully now that you know the breakdown you can see that you are paying for exactly what it takes to put that music on lacquer, no more, no less.
More often than not, when it comes to vinyl these days it is a labor of love. The time for this to be a money maker has come and gone. Everyone involved is giving more than they are financially compensated for. That is all the way up the line from artist to mastering engineer to cutting engineer to plater to pressing facility to distributors to the few remaining records stores to the dj's and collectors playing vinyl. We shouldn't be looking at all this with dollar signs in our eyes. At least that's my two cents!
Cutting, Inventing & Innovating
Groove Graphics, VMS Halfnuts, MIDI Automation, Professional Stereo Feedback Cutterheads, and Pesto 1-D Cutterhead Clones
Cutterhead Repair: Recoiling, Cleaning, Cloning of Screws, Dampers & More
http://mantra.audio
Groove Graphics, VMS Halfnuts, MIDI Automation, Professional Stereo Feedback Cutterheads, and Pesto 1-D Cutterhead Clones
Cutterhead Repair: Recoiling, Cleaning, Cloning of Screws, Dampers & More
http://mantra.audio
I understand where you guys are coming from, i just don't want to hear about the last factory shutting down.. Ever since i was a little kid, i wanted to make records, and everyday i grow older, it seems that it's that much more difficult to accomplish.
The new digital way is less then desirable.. There is no more A&R, music had been devalued to peanuts, and there is no psychical product.
There is nothing to prevent terrible music from flooding the shelves, it is too easy to manipulate sales numbers on a product that doesn't exist in the real world, and no way to inventory the product. Plus, its only about 60% of the actual music due to compression.
I don't see how the record business will survive without records..
An if any other company would have done what apollo did, they would get in trouble from the government for creating a monopoly.. Why was there no transco bailout?..
an yea, your right i guess, the new press was a cd maker.. there are enough bright people here, that if we wanted to, we could collectively design a new press..
The new digital way is less then desirable.. There is no more A&R, music had been devalued to peanuts, and there is no psychical product.
There is nothing to prevent terrible music from flooding the shelves, it is too easy to manipulate sales numbers on a product that doesn't exist in the real world, and no way to inventory the product. Plus, its only about 60% of the actual music due to compression.
I don't see how the record business will survive without records..
An if any other company would have done what apollo did, they would get in trouble from the government for creating a monopoly.. Why was there no transco bailout?..
an yea, your right i guess, the new press was a cd maker.. there are enough bright people here, that if we wanted to, we could collectively design a new press..
Do it! Come on, do it! Just do it! Do it! Come on. Do it! (Ben Stiller from Starsky and Hutch).JayDC wrote:an yea, your right i guess, the new press was a cd maker.. there are enough bright people here, that if we wanted to, we could collectively design a new press..
I am hoping to become independently wealthy so I can:
A. Buy a VMS80
B. Setup a small pressing facility
C. Invest in R&D to modern everything from cutting to materials to pressing
Until then I will continue to feel lucky I have what I have and that it continues to work.
Apollo does have a monopoly but they are not throwing their weight around. They are not asking outrageous prices. If they did then someone would start importing from MDC to the states. I'm not sure how monopoly rules and regulations apply to an industry/market that is anitquated.
If Apollo ever wanted to close their doors there are a number of us in the industry that could certainly raise the capital to purchase the business. Without lacquers there are no more records...
Cutting, Inventing & Innovating
Groove Graphics, VMS Halfnuts, MIDI Automation, Professional Stereo Feedback Cutterheads, and Pesto 1-D Cutterhead Clones
Cutterhead Repair: Recoiling, Cleaning, Cloning of Screws, Dampers & More
http://mantra.audio
Groove Graphics, VMS Halfnuts, MIDI Automation, Professional Stereo Feedback Cutterheads, and Pesto 1-D Cutterhead Clones
Cutterhead Repair: Recoiling, Cleaning, Cloning of Screws, Dampers & More
http://mantra.audio
To Jdc
Hey man I am not sure where you are coming from really Let me tell you a couple of other things
On our 702 Alpha toolex press we can make 4 x 7" a minute That is if I am looking after the thing and i can video t and posted up for you if you wish
Other operators will keep it at around 20 seconds and that is 3 per minute
This is an old design about 30 years old but it was and it still is right up there with the best including cd presses
A single head cd press would be around three times as fast poping out 12 cd's a minute But it only has to deal with 10 grams of molten plastic rather than 3-4 times the amount that a 7" record weighs
Now it is very simple my friend ex amount of plastic has to be heated formed and cooled down enough so as to come out of the press
I can assure you if the cd press had to do a 30-40 gram cd it would be marginally faster but not that much It is a simple rule of adding and removing heat from a projected area Very basic thermodynamics mate
So a new press will be no improvement at all on the Alpha press even if they where made in 1979
These machines are FAST today
On the other hand a 12" Alpha will still push 2 records a minute while it has to deal with around 140-150 grams of plastic material same rules apply there as well So I cannot see what you are on about
May be if you take off your rose coloured glasses look at the facts as they are than you may be better informed Not that I have an issue with your views on music on cd compressed loudness wars and all of that none whatsoever
But in terms of making vinyl records at a price level that will be at somewhere near cd prices it is certainly looking for miracles man
Just the shear weight of all the materials involved before any records are manufactured exceeds the cost of a cd ex the east countries
Now lets be realistic and factual One can put great music on a cd and it will sound really good if the people that do them followed some of the rules of vinyl mastering
The problem is that since the D to A conversion is such a mess the music is brickwalled which creates enough noise so as to hide the lost bits This than creates the need for increased sound levels so as to further hide the unpleasant resultant sound and we finish up with what we all know bad sound which hearts my ears any way But try telling this to kids or people who have grown up with cd's around them or someone with an ipod which is far worse
As I have already said it is what it is and one has to be a realist
Cheers
Hey man I am not sure where you are coming from really Let me tell you a couple of other things
On our 702 Alpha toolex press we can make 4 x 7" a minute That is if I am looking after the thing and i can video t and posted up for you if you wish
Other operators will keep it at around 20 seconds and that is 3 per minute
This is an old design about 30 years old but it was and it still is right up there with the best including cd presses
A single head cd press would be around three times as fast poping out 12 cd's a minute But it only has to deal with 10 grams of molten plastic rather than 3-4 times the amount that a 7" record weighs
Now it is very simple my friend ex amount of plastic has to be heated formed and cooled down enough so as to come out of the press
I can assure you if the cd press had to do a 30-40 gram cd it would be marginally faster but not that much It is a simple rule of adding and removing heat from a projected area Very basic thermodynamics mate
So a new press will be no improvement at all on the Alpha press even if they where made in 1979
These machines are FAST today
On the other hand a 12" Alpha will still push 2 records a minute while it has to deal with around 140-150 grams of plastic material same rules apply there as well So I cannot see what you are on about
May be if you take off your rose coloured glasses look at the facts as they are than you may be better informed Not that I have an issue with your views on music on cd compressed loudness wars and all of that none whatsoever
But in terms of making vinyl records at a price level that will be at somewhere near cd prices it is certainly looking for miracles man
Just the shear weight of all the materials involved before any records are manufactured exceeds the cost of a cd ex the east countries
Now lets be realistic and factual One can put great music on a cd and it will sound really good if the people that do them followed some of the rules of vinyl mastering
The problem is that since the D to A conversion is such a mess the music is brickwalled which creates enough noise so as to hide the lost bits This than creates the need for increased sound levels so as to further hide the unpleasant resultant sound and we finish up with what we all know bad sound which hearts my ears any way But try telling this to kids or people who have grown up with cd's around them or someone with an ipod which is far worse
As I have already said it is what it is and one has to be a realist
Cheers
Chris