Surface Noise

[JayDC]

i have some, how much would you need

[montalbano]

Heat up to 42 °C
Put weight off the cutterhead with the spring or the counterbalance until, when lowered, the stylus doesn't touch the blank's surface
Then add some weight again
Cut some blank grooves
Listen to the noise in the blank groove
Then again some weight
See how it goes
Ideally, you should have a good microscope to inspect the width of the groove
But if you have the std VR microscope, forget it and do this empirically
Add weight until noise keeps low and you see sharp grooves which reflect the light of the lamps very crispy - No grey grooves. If you see rainbow, stylus is going to say byebye in a short time, but still OK.
Groove width is OK when you cut loud (+4dB) and the playback is OK on a std playback needle on any turntable

[Audiofiligram]

For all the other that stylus seems hundred times clean than the mine , will be very interesting see the other faces (sure that one is the cutting face ?)

Regards , Happy if can help.

[maniman]

Thats the face that cuts ... the tip on this face is the really important , watch for defects , Its difficult sometimes to see , I usually stop the microscope light and light up with lamp from rear of this ( the light impact on the flat side , no on this ) when watch that side , you only see the shadow of the stylus and the light passing by , it's more easy to see defects in that way.

He he , Montalbano has responded "at fly" and was not aware of what we asked , WHAT IS THE VR DIAMOND STYLUS CLEANING FLUID , AND HOW THAT FRIEND CAN IMPROVISE THE FLUID OR DO BY HIMSELF SOMETHING SIMILAR ???????????

I noticed a very little withe spot near the tip , that can be , I guess is a very sticky piece of dirt.



PD : I guess definetly is something strange on the tip , but is difficult to say without more detail.

[opcode66]

will be very interesting see the other faces (sure that one is the cutting face ?)

For those who might be confused about what side is which. The flat side (Mirror Surface) is the cutting side. The flat side forces the chip to separate from the surface of the disc. The back side looks like a knife edge. If the flat side is facing against the spinning of the disc you are cutting. If the back side is facing against the spinning of the disc you are embossing. Embossing produces no chip.

When I first looked at a cutting stylus I thought it was the other way around. Makes sense though. If you had the angled knife-like side facing into the motion of the disc you would only score the surface.

[maniman]

Ohhhh ... I take some time for read about embossing when read your reply , and thanks , all take sense now if im not wrong , I try to imagine with a knife cutting a running treadmill , and if i take the idea cut need a lot more force (weight in that case? ) and evidently attack frontally the record , by the rear faces can attack the disk too (is like cut backs to the spin direction) , but need take some angle because really the tip is at the other side.

Is essentially that ? ( in my very plain language )

[Audiofiligram]

I m not sure I understand the difference between
cutting and embossing , could somebody explain it
in simple words (sorry my technical english is not so good)
and in which way has to be used ?

thx

[emorritt]

Cutting is when material is removed from the disc. Embossing is when the groove is formed by pressing a hard, blunt-ended stylus against the surface, but no material is removed. Cutting is generally done on lacquer, copper or hard plastic discs. Embossing is generally done on bare aluminum or soft plastic discs. Lathes like Presto, Fairchild, Scully, Neumann, etc. are usually associated with cutting. Dictation machines like the Audograph, SoundScriber, etc. are usually embossing machines. Home recorders like Wilcox-Gay, Meissner, Packard-Bell "PhonOCord", etc. could usually be set up to do either. Hope this helps.

[opcode66]

If you put the stylus in the cutterhead with the back agle facing toward the back of you lathe (into the movement of the disc) and drop the head you will not create chip. You will only be embossing. The equivalent is taking a knife and using it to carve a scracth (groove) into a surface. All you are doing is scoring the surface.

If you put the stylus in the cutterhead appropriately with the back angel facing toward the front of the lathe then you will be cutting. The flat mirror surface promotes the material to seperate from the disc as a fine thread. The equivalent is taking a knife, turning it around opposite of how you normally use it and carving a groove with it. This time, a thread of material will be created. You are actually pulling something off the surface instead of just separating the material on the surface.

If still confused I can scan some diagrams.

[emorritt]

Yeah, sort of. I did this years ago with embossing discs before I got embossing styli. It only sort of works. You need an appropriate embossing stylus and not a reversed cutting needle. It will work for a short while, but will damage the jewel and create nothing but noise after about 2 minutes. Been there done that.

[piaptk]

Where did you get embossing styli???

[opcode66]

I wasn't suggesting to cut this way. Just explaining orientation of the stylus. One of the prior images showed the back angle and it was identified as the cutting side. I just wanted to clarify that it was in fact the back angle and back side of the stylus and not the cutting side. And, if you had it oriented that way you would emboss not cut.

[emorritt]

Generally speaking, with jewel type cutting styluses the "back side" is the flat cutting face and the "front side" is the side with the facet angles. Years ago there was a business called Boynton Studio - I think it still exists to some degree today, but they used to be a supplier of recording equipment and supplies. At one time they carried embossing styli and discs from Hansa Plastics. I still have some of these supplies and I also have posted photos of the embossing styluses I purchased years ago for reference. We're talking late 1970's/early 1980's when this stuff was still available. The discs were very much like flexi's - similar to SoundScriber and Audograph discs but with the usual center hole and a drive pin hole - not the square hole as with SoundScriber or th star shaped hole like the Gray Audograph. A little thicker than EvaTone Soundsheets.

Peter King does something very similar to embossing styli for his records, but not quite the same. From what I've heard it works fairly well.

[opcode66]

[maniman]

Aha , very very interesting , thank you all for enlighten the idea , I wanna read more about , I found some basic info about stylus interesting for me in the Disk Recording vol.1 (

"Practical Aspects of High Fidelity Disk Reconding" Carlos E.R.A Moura 1957 pag 192

and a bit more specific

"Desing and Use of Recording stylus" Richard Marcucci 1964 pag 297

There are some info about embossing in the book , I didnt see anything at first look , tonight read more carefully.

Casually yesterday evening I has a problem with my stylus now go to investigate what happening , I guess is near the end (if its true the Presto stylus waits another month s**t)

Thanks for all and best regards
Mani

[Audiofiligram]

thanks a lot , interesting picture !!

[Serif]

Are you saying that vertical cutting is not quite embossing?

Does vertical cutting throw swarf?


Andrew

[emorritt]

A 'cut' groove is just that - something is removed from the surface; regardless of the motion of the stylus. Edison cylinders were strictly vertical recordings, but the groove was cut and threw swarf when being recorded just as lacquer discs (or copper in DMM) throw chip whether mono (side to side movement only) or stereo, which includes vertical motion.

An embossed groove is, at a very basic level, just scratched in the soft surface of some suitable substrate. The recording stylus simply displaces the material to form a readable groove. Early instantaneous recordings were embossed in a soft aluminum disc using a special embossing stylus and a heavy recording head. Presto's model J recorder was built for embossing and the Audax head had a pin where you put a three pound brass weight when recording. The J was a transitional machine, so the weight could be removed and a cutting stylus used with a lacquer disc. Since recorded quality was much better after Presto came out with the lacquer disc, embossed aluminum for instantaneous recording fell out of use. However, dictation manufacturers stuck with embossing methods because there was no mess to clean up after making a recording.

[Serif]

Thanks for the clarification. I had read somewhere that stereo cutting was essentially a combined engraving and embossing process since there was simultaneous left-right with up-down operation. So, vertical cutting does not qualify as "embossing" mostly since there is already a process which lays claim to a different way of achieving hills and dales, or are the resultant grooves different at even the perspective of the playback stylus?

Cheers,
Andrew

[greybeard]

It is slightly confusing, but a modern stereo record (since 1958) is actually neither lateral nor vertical, but two in-out motions moving at 45 degrees into the record material. You would even have to say that one angle is +45 degrees and the other is -45 degrees. Some would say that the cutting or modulation is hill-and-dale for each channel, but as I said, at an angle. Both activities are cutting activities, and this means that the thread (also called chips or swarf) that you get varies very much in thickness and cross section. When you look at the left and right signals, they can be combined by addition and subtraction. If you add them you will get a lateral result and if you subtract one from the other you will get a vertical signal. Early "mono compatible" stereo records were made so that the vertical signal was small in order that a pickup with a great vertical stiffness would not destroy the groove when you played it.