Groove depth discussion

[mossboss]

Old timers will cut as swallow a groove as possible
Always at zero ref level
The reason is very simple
In the days of vinyl's glory the whole game was to produce as thin record as possible
Assume a 1 million pressings production run a saving of 2 grams of PVC per record becomes very significant
The plant gets the same price so the saving in material was an important issue
So a swallow grove allowed the record to be still straight and playable while being very thin
I would like to see any pressing plant putting out a 100 grams 12 record or less with the cuts that are done today to even resemble something like a flat record
It will look a large lettuce leaf that's for sure
Now days this is not a big issue as runs are small and in essence PVC is much cheaper now than these days gone past about half the price
Regardless a deep cut groove simply means there is less material available between the a and b side on the record, thickness that is
A wrapped record if it is around the 120-130 grams is about the lower limit any less for these deep cuts forget it
It is quite simple really tension introduced to the material during pressing is not shared or resisted by the remaining material between the grooves being less and less so the record will twist and wrap and there is nothing the press man can do about it
It is no wonder than that people often complain about quality now days
If you cut at + whatever and I have heard someone only recently bragging about a cut he did at +10 how on earth is the record to stay flat if it is a standard weight record at say 130 grams?
It wont, it will cause problems at the plant no doubt about that
Yes I know I will get plenty of people telling me other wise
I can assure them that, yes a lot of deep cuts are done and records pressed at that weight they are flat and stay flat
That is not by design but rather a fortunate situation as the cut did not fall on top of another deep cut on the other side of the record
One can hardly expect a plant to have a set of dies so as to suit the cut
The issue is one that has to be looked at by all the cutters out there
At 180 grams it is not an issue at all but it is a total waste of resources as well as unnecessary
At the end of the day we are living in a world with diminishing resources which certainly includes the PVC we use to make records
So here we are on the groove depth issue gentleman
On another related point
I am still trying to find someone who will explain to me why amp/mixing deck manufacturers have gain as well as volume controls on the gear they make
Besides any amount of watts is available for peanuts now days
There is no doubt that most amps are over driven at the first stage at least with these cuts, which distorts all the way out
What is it now days with those Loud Cuts that everyone is doing
The cut is done the guy sends the lacquers off to the plating shop on to the pressing plant his job is done but is it? He only gets to hear of issues if there is a problem and often it is just a case of, it worked out a OK
No control or application of a standard It is a case of my dick is bigger than yours scenario
I can do loud cuts I can do louder cuts I can do the loudest cuts
Arghhh
WHY?
Beats me
Cheers

[JayDC]

I often wonder this as well..

My DJ mixers always have a gain, if what I'm playing is not loud enough, I simply adjust the gain. So in reality, I dont need a new amp, coz I can just apply gain to my dubplates, and get a higher level..

The problem is the stupid CDJ things those "other" DJ use..

If I follow a CD DJ using a CDJ CD Player from Pioneer, his gains are off the charts.. Like insanely hot going to the mixer.. So I am not as loud when its my turn, even if the gains are ALL UP.. Then the crowd is like WTF is going on, coz the sound guy is asleep at the wheel, and could care less about how the show is going..

So its just like the 80's Loudness wars on the radio.. It has to be loud to be competitive.. Since DJ are, I would say, at least 40% of the market that's how it goes..

[dietrich10]

10mils...

[opcode66]

It seems to me like this particular cutting room will go overboard on the depth for any dance cut. I mean wowzers, 4 mils is plenty... The overcuts aren't that spectacular to have either. If anyone is interested I'll take some scope pictures. They would be an example of what not to do.

For sure you have to bump your gains up to about 3 o'clock to get CD's to tickle the red on most Pioneer mixing boards. For vinyl I find that I only need to be between Midnight and 3 o'clock depending on the cut.

So, JayDC, here is the trick. When you get on, turn up the Master Volume knob on the mixing board a little bit. Boom, problem solved. You've now got some proper volume and you don't need to bother the club's sound guy (if they even have one).

Personally, I've never really had this issue. I just played at Smart Bar here in Chicago on a Function One system. 1200's, and CDJ-1000's on a DJM-800 mixing board. Bounced from cd's to vinyl. Just adjusted gains appropriately so I'm just tickling red on both sides. Adjust EQ as needed. Sound is consistent, though a little deader on the cd side and more lively on the vinyl.

[dietrich10]

10 mils...how long does your stylus last?

I cut plenty of +5 etc dance music and unmodulated usually 4 mil...

[opcode66]

It wasn't me who cut at 10 mils so I have no idea. Probably not very long. I don't personally know the cutter, but he is around. Certainly you all would know if I said.

[dietrich10]

I know it wasnt the 'deep grooves' mastering @ 10mil but with that name...hahaha

If its the A place there is a 2nd cutter there now too

[Nickou]

I know it wasnt the 'deep grooves' mastering @ 10mil but with that name...hahaha

If its the A place there is a 2nd cutter there now too

[mossboss]

A laughing matter indeed
Than pufffff goes the head Ha
Than the repair bill
Than no more 10 ml stuff
Cheers

[opcode66]

Oh D, always one step ahead of me... Man you are on top of your game.

Yea the name "deep grooves" comes from "deep house" for those who don't know. That is what I write/dj/love.

[Aussie0zborn]

...I am still trying to find someone who will explain to me why amp/mixing deck manufacturers have gain as well as volume controls on the gear they make...

You need the gain to set the "gain structure" and get it to unity. Use of the PFL button will allow you to see the input level on the LED meters and set the gain properly. Gain set too low with volume set up above unity will introduce the noise that is apparent in every mixer. This is also useful on DJ mixers so that when you cut or mix from one input channel to another, the level is matched. You need this just as much on a DJ mixer as yo do on a microphone mixer. Proper gain setting will get the best signal to noise ratio out of the mixer.

The knobs on a power amplifier are not volume controls - they are input attenuators. They allow you to reduce a hot level so that there is no clipping in the amp.

Zero in, zero out is what you want for proper system performance.

[subkontrabob]

Back on topic: too low a level CAN be detrimental for a vinyl DJ in certain situations. If you have an unfortunate combination of PA, room and turntables, too high a gain setting will trigger acoustic feedback between PA and turntables. Too quietly cut records are bad in such a situation. Been there a few times........ Only remedy is to cut out some of the bass - not good if you're playing to utter bass addicts..... Sometimes I've resorted to ride the bass EQ pot in time with bass hits, cutting the Bass out when there is nothing to prevent feedback

going slightly offtopic:

...I am still trying to find someone who will explain to me why amp/mixing deck manufacturers have gain as well as volume controls on the gear they make...

You need the gain to set the "gain structure" and get it to unity. Use of the PFL button will allow you to see the input level on the LED meters and set the gain properly. Gain set too low with volume set up above unity will introduce the noise that is apparent in every mixer. This is also useful on DJ mixers so that when you cut or mix from one input channel to another, the level is matched. You need this just as much on a DJ mixer as yo do on a microphone mixer. Proper gain setting will get the best signal to noise ratio out of the mixer.

The knobs on a power amplifier are not volume controls - they are input attenuators. They allow you to reduce a hot level so that there is no clipping in the amp.

only problem is, PIONEER mixers MISLEAD ignorant and/or inexperienced people BY DESIGN to drive them too hot. In the LED metering of the individual channels as well as in the master, unity is halfway to the top. the lower half has green LEDs, the upper half RED ones.

Result: people think "oh, this is not loud enough, I'm only halfway, I can still turn it up much more", blissfully ignorant of such concepts as crest factor or dynamic range, crank the gain until the LEDs are lit all the way up all the time. The sonic result is horrible. And most people don't even realize it.

Zero in, zero out is what you want for proper system performance.

very true, and very sad that many people don't realize this simple fact. "Why read the manual? I know how this stuff works...."

I follow a CD DJ using a CDJ CD Player from Pioneer, his gains are off the charts.. Like insanely hot going to the mixer.. So I am not as loud when its my turn, even if the gains are ALL UP.. Then the crowd is like WTF is going on, coz the sound guy is asleep at the wheel, and could care less about how the show is going..

DJM 800 has, if I recall correctly, a small output gain pot next to the XLR outputs. It's a bit fiddly to reach because the connectors and the gain knob are hidden under a kind of "hunchback". So if the soundguy is sleeping again and the mixer is not built into a table or cast in concrete, you could just help yourself

[JayDC]

I know that I can adjust the knobs and such, I have been DJing for over 12 years.. Its just those guys with the CDJ CD players.. I'm telling you, they have incredible gain.. Even when I was using serato I ran into the problem of not being loud enough.

The CDJ's must have some sort of mini amp on the output, and I think it over exaggerates the high end too, which will make anything put through it perceived as super loud..

bottom line, rather not adjust anything, and try to cut me stuff as loud as i need it. Most pressed records are cut loud these days, and they are not an issue.. I only play dubplates, so I need ot get my act together..

[humongous]

It seems to me like this particular cutting room will go overboard on the depth for any dance cut. I mean wowzers, 4 mils is plenty... The overcuts aren't that spectacular to have either. If anyone is interested I'll take some scope pictures. They would be an example of what not to do.


I would love to see scope pics[/quote]

[opcode66]

I'll take some scope shots and post them today.

[opcode66]

Here are some scope pics of the pressed release I was refering to. Sorry, my mistake, they are 7 mils not 10. But, a pretty crazy cut nonetheless! I did not cut this master!

[concretecowboy71]

Nice photos. What do you use? Got to be better than the cell phone I use!

I don't find it shocking that disc played. The groove is so wide that the playback stylus probably can track around the defects.

I have seen intrusions worse than that playback on narrower grooves. Makes you wonder how bad an over cut has to be before it skips.

BTW, totally is misspelled in the one photo. Just don't want the guy/gal who is being critiqued to be able to rib you for grammar points!

[dietrich10]

With those deep cuts tough to make it skip unless they completely run through each other. those marks looks like they had the other side of the lacquer on first, blew the side and flipped it over with their platter leaving a symmetrical mark(mine does often).

2.5 mil overcuts cant track
7 mil! yes!!!!

[jjgolden]

I don't find it shocking that disc played. The groove is so wide that the playback stylus probably can track around the defects.
I have seen intrusions worse than that playback on narrower grooves.

I Tottttally agree.

[opcode66]

Those were just the ones I found quickly. There was an overcut that was more severe than any shown here, I just couldn't easily find it again. My friend has had pressed discs from same cutting room with skips. Not sure if it was overcut or out of phase bass that caused the skip. Given the groove depth I would have to say overcut.

The lead-in groove is also a little deeper. The original point I wanted to make was that this plated and pressed without issue. So, we know that up to 7 mils will plate even with a deeper lead-in groove.

Edit:
I used my iPhone to take the shots.

Also wanted to say that the overcuts can be heard as background noise if you listen closely.