Don't plate

[Serif]

Hi, this section should not be called, Plating &.... there is no use for plating when making stampers. Electroforming is what is done. Clean. Spray. Electroform. Part (not plate). Continue... Plating is a fail.





- Andrew

[dubcutter89]

well...

let's say the silver-layer is the first step in making a negative (father)
as most of us know this is usually done by spraying the lacquer with a mixture of ammonical silver (?) and glucose formaldehyde (?).
-> neither electroplating nor electroforming! - i would call this (liquid) chemical deposition

alternative would be using a wax disks and deposit the silver-layer by thermal evaporation in a vacuum chamber...
-> thermal evaporation / physical vapour deposition (pvd)

and the next step is to grow a cherent nickel layer on it...
-> the nickel layer IS electroplatet

the silver-layer being 0.5µm thick (??)
and the nickel something like 400µm (??)

this makes 0.124... % chemical depostition
and 99.875... % ELECTROPLATING

...so maybe electroplating is not that wrong....
...call it the miracle of making stampers...

cheers

[Serif]

well...

let's say the silver-layer is the first step in making a negative (father)
as most of us know this is usually done by spraying the lacquer with a mixture of ammonical silver (?) and glucose formaldehyde (?).
-> neither electroplating nor electroforming! - i would call this (liquid) chemical deposition

- Agreed, no plating, yet.

=
and the next step is to grow a cherent nickel layer on it...
-> the nickel layer IS electroplatet

No, the Nickel layer is deposited, but plating is not desired as that would preclude "parting." Forming is desired. This way, the Ni can be "parted" from the lacquer.

the silver-layer being 0.5µm thick (??)
and the nickel something like 400µm (??)

this makes 0.124... % chemical depostition
and 99.875... % ELECTROPLATING

No. No plating is desired. One can actually spray a solution of Nickel on the lacquer, without any Ag involved. It is a proprietary formula which has been temporarily lost to the craft, but that proves that no plating is wanted. The entire Nickel master can be removed from the lacquer premaster regardless of the conductive layer sprayed on top. In traditional stamper forming, one isn't deliberately trying to plate the Ag onto the matrix, either. It is painstakingly removed, at some detriment to the pressings' treble grooves, in the case of both 1- and 2-step electroforming...

...so maybe electroplating is not that wrong....
...call it the miracle of making stampers...

cheers

I call your description bunkum. Nice try.




Cheers,
Andrew

[dubcutter89]

I call your description bunkum...

i can live with that...

No, the Nickel layer is deposited, but plating is not desired as that would preclude "parting." Forming is desired. This way, the Ni can be "parted" from the lacquer.

My thought was that the silver layer is formed, and also able to get seperated from the lacquer. And the nickel is plated onto the silver layer to make it more stable - or would anyone want to seperate the silver from the nickel mechanically?

well it's sometimes hard to explain what your thinking, especially for a non native english speaker...

cheers

[Serif]

In all electroforming, the electrodeposition of same metals onto the backside of the form, as it forms, is obviously desired. However, this is not finishing. This is forming.

Conversely, when the Ni is electrodeposited onto the Ag coating that has been sprayed onto the lacquer recording, the Ag face is actually plated onto the Ni. But the mandrel (i.e., the lacquer mistress) is not plated, as it can be mechanically parted from the formed master.

All one has to do is call this process, electroforming, in order to be correct. To call it plating is like calling water-skiing, ice skating. In both scenarios, one uses foot-mounted runners to slide over H20.

ymmv,


- Andrew

[mossboss]

Hey serif
Ask the guy who's is going to fire up the baths so as to do metal work where you are what he is really doing ???
I ll tell you he would be dummy plating or dummying
Check my other post as well on terminology but take note of what " the landlord" there will tell you
Bet you a beer or two
Cheers

[Serif]

Hey serif
Ask the guy who's is going to fire up the baths so as to do metal work where you are what he is really doing ???
...

No need. It was the E. E./ landlord who informed me that he is not Electroplating. He says he is Electroforming - or, simply, making parts. He is almost as adamant as I that these terms not be seriously conflated (by colleagues - although the customer is always "right.") Both activities are types of Electrodeposition. But, in the words of Frederick A. Lowenheim (of the Electrochemical Society), "The principal difference between electroplating and electroforming is that, in the former the aim is a deposit with the best possible adhesion to the substrate, whereas in the latter the adhesion should be minimal - just sufficient so that the deposit remains attached to the substrate during the operation, but is easily separated afterward."

Barbara Mandrell and Dolly Parton come to mind... Their mandrels had to be parted or else no one could have seen them get their Grammys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s14e3vEK4g0


Lowenheim also wrote a cool passage on vinyl stamper forming: "Reproduction of fine detail is unmatched by any other method of mass production. Perhaps the best illustration of this is the production of masters and stampers for microgroove [gramophone] records, where modulations necessary for hi-fi are about 13 nm (13 x 10/\-6 mm). In spite of the extremely small tolerance, the master can be faithfully reproduced by electroforming even to the third generation of copies..."

He does sometimes slip and calls the aqueous solution for forming, a "plating bath," but I fear he has here merely fallen prey to conflated convention. The word for the solution should be deposition bath, since this is what is germane to both activities - the relatively easy and fast, or super hard-to-do and long-dwell, electrodepostion.

He continues with: "...because the physical properties of electroforms are usually of much more concern than those of ordinary electrodeposits and because electroforms are usually much thicker than ... electroplates, the composition and operating conditions of electroforming [solutions and electrodes] tend to be more critical than those used for the thinner deposits of electroplating. Many addition agents, added for brightness, leveling, and other purposes, are not allowable in electroforming solutions, because they introduce trace contaminants into the deposits which have deleterious effects on the properties of the electroforms. And because thicker deposits are involved, speed of [deposition] is of more importance; [deposition] times, long in any case, should be minimized."

Plating normally takes only minutes. Forming takes hours, and sometimes days, depending on the form sought. Because of the need for control over the environment of the cells, I was told that it is not practical to perform both types of electrodeposition, plating and forming, even in the same building. So, let's get ourselves a map, Trolls!

(I had to use braces where he used the wrong words, phonograph and plating. He knows his stuff, and even he can't keep it straight! The Phonograph was invented by Edison and is an Amberol beer can-looking record playing format. The gramophone was invented by Berliner and plays a flat disc record - originally, only one-sided and with a 2.5" radius. Trolls usually cut over-sized gramophone disks, but phonograph is the commonly mis-used word)


- Andrew

[Angus McCarthy]

I hear you, man, but what can you really do in the end? Folks are going to call it what they want to call it.

English is a malleable language. Go figure.

[Serif]

Aye, Angus. However, I fear that an internet forum is not a successful venue for the discussion of technical ideas wherever exactitude is shunned to the extent that nomenclature is cloaked in superposition with nearby but not desired undertakings. Plating ≠ forming. Engineer ≠ graduate. Galvanizing ≠ Galvanoplasty. Master ≠ master ≠ premaster(er) ≠ lacquer master ≠ multitrack master ≠ journeyman +...


etc..

Groove on,

Andrew

[mossboss]

Well well
The master of electro forming Mr Spiro is in concert with your man in lots of areas
What you are telling is pretty spot on
Spiro said that for every 1000 electroplated there is one electro former
So once we agree that terminology is incorrect than what?
I will just keep going making metal work so we can press records
As for the rest it is really academic.
I have already pointed out my way of dealing with a plethora of names
A storm in a tea cup in my view
Enjoyable all the same
Keep at it
Best
Chris

[concretecowboy71]

We call a tissue a Kleenex.

Some people call soda pop a "coke" and A LOT of people call A Canada Goose a Canadian Goose.

A Buffalo is really an American Bison... the list goes on. I don't think Ted Nuget's great jam "Great White Buffalo" would sound as catchy if named "Great White American Bison".

The technical terms are great, but do you think the guy smoking a J and listening to his favorite platter, wax, record or phono recording cares?

I can assure you the answer is NO!

I mean all of this with my tongue planted firmly in cheek and do appreciate the technical info, but it seems we spend a lot of time splitting hairs rather than talking about the real, day to day practical aspects of disc cutting.

Carry on.

[opcode66]

Well said Clint! I feel the same. To much nitpicking. Not enough productive talk.

[Serif]

We call a tissue a Kleenex.

Some people call soda pop a "coke" and A LOT of people call A Canada Goose a Canadian Goose.

The folks who call Pepsi, Coke, are not making Pepsi. The guys who say Canadian Goose, perhaps without realizing it, are talking about something done to a different kind of "bird."

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Canadian%20Goose

A Buffalo is really an American Bison... the list goes on. I don't think Ted Nuget's great jam "Great White Buffalo" would sound as catchy if named "Great White American Bison".

Catchy is great for album covers where equivocation, poetic license, and that which is hypnagogically misleading is embraced. "Disraeli Gears"? But if you are cutting the side and you tell Mr. NRA that his master is ready, although he knows you've only cut the grandmother part, you've both mis-used the word which is germane to the part-forming service on your immediate right. (As stated earlier, no one recording a mix down to a master tape calls mixing, mastering... So why call cutting a lacquer master, mastering? Plating is a fail if trying to make a stamper. The fact that Ag plates on a matrix doesn't mean that it is desired or that anything got plated to the lacquer. The Ag + dextrose/ or formaldehyde coats the grandmother and the Ag plates (regrettably) to the father. But if there were a way to keep this from happening, it would be undertaken, since it makes the 1-step form loose treble to remove it. Parting is the goal and intention of electroforms - not plating. Don't plate!) Since the Ag plates to the electroform, it isn't really an example of electroplating - it's electroforming, as it deposits to the form, not the mandrel.

The technical terms are great, but do you think the guy smoking a J and listening to his favorite platter, wax, record or phono recording cares?

This forum is for lathe trolls - not Wolfman Jack! (L:

I can assure you the answer is NO!

I mean all of this with my tongue planted firmly in cheek and do appreciate the technical info, but it seems we spend a lot of time splitting hairs rather than talking about the real, day to day practical aspects of disc cutting.

Carry on.

As far as I can tell, I'm the only one interested in splitting hairs, here. But the words I have tried to add to this list's lexicon are actual and true, and the words used by the bulk of the industry are technically incorrect. Sorry to be the bearer of these unpopular tidings. I thought there'd be more interest, since trolls are often "truthers." But it's like no one is into the real deal. They just want to keep on calling what they do the cool terms. This is the road to S-Bomb. ydtm


Andrew

[Serif]

Well said Clint! I feel the same. To much nitpicking. Not enough productive talk.

One man's nit picked is another troll's improved understanding of the nomenclature of the sophisticated. One must understand the distinction of the terms to preclude conflation and ensure good forum signaling. If one doesn't like discussing the precise lexicon of sound disk manufacturing, there are other threads to haunt. The purpose of this thread (Don't plate) is to be an iconoclast of misunderstandings.

I challenge Steve to have the intellectual integrity to alter the title of this forum section to:

Electrodepostion and Pressing

The word, electrodeposition, is an umbrella term for both Electroplating and Electroforming. This way, everyone wins - Truthers, and go-with-the-crowders.

If this doesn't get fixed by May Day, I shall have to vacate this forum in search of like-minded Truthers who are keen on accuracy in words as well as quality in deeds.


(I might cop out and still post as Serif, however);

Andrew

[gold]

[ So why call cutting a lacquer master, mastering?

Because it is the master form that the production moulds are made from. In the optical disc manufacturing biz creating the glass master is commonly known as mastering. I guess we need to call everyone pre pre mastering clerks. I miss Laarso. Please say hello.

I enjoyed the quotes on the difference between electroforming and electroplating. That is something I did knot know. Desmond sidesteps the issue. Mastercraft Metal Finishing. But everyone calls it Mastercraft Electroplating anyway.

[jjgolden]

Set phasers to stun:

You're going to leave the site because you can't change our choice of words?
Please stay, your input no matter how difficult it is for us illiterates to read, is informative and ultimately
helpful which is what this site is supposed to be.

You say tomato, I say oranges. Neither of us go hungry.
Now, why does my record distort as it nears the inner diameter?.....

[Serif]

[ So why call cutting a lacquer master, mastering?

Because it is the master form that the production moulds are made from.

The first electroform is the master, ergo, every part previous to this is a premaster. Furthermore, the lacquer has grooves, so it can't be the master - she is a mistress.

In the optical disc manufacturing biz creating the glass master is commonly known as mastering. I guess we need to call everyone pre pre mastering clerks. I miss Laarso. Please say hello.

In CD replication, the glass master is not really a master, either, because it is used to make the metal master for injection-moulding replicates. So, she, too, is a premaster. A better word might be production grandmother. Anyone using SADiE and a Crookwood is doing grandfathering. Using an lbr or a lathe is grandmothering. Electrodeposition is mastering. Mothers and sons are always last...

Who spilled the beans that I know the identity of the avatar, Laarsø? No more sound sheets for Blackwood-san, if it were he... hehe

I enjoyed the quotes on the difference between electroforming and electroplating. That is something I did knot know. Desmond sidesteps the issue. Mastercraft Metal Finishing. But everyone calls it Mastercraft Electroplating anyway.

Finishing is cleaning, polishing, buffing, and plating metal. What Desmond and company are actually doing is not Finishing, since the Ag + dextrose spray is applied to a non-metallic lacquer and then becomes a necessary but inconvenient part of the electroform and is painstakingly removed afterwards. They are not Electroplating, either, for reasons stated above. They may not realize this, nor may their clients, nor may any of these folks actually care. I haven't called MC, however, as I am focusing this tirade on people in a position to know. (L:

Electroforming is "starting something" - not "finishing."


Skol,
Andrew

[Serif]

Set phasers to stun:

You're going to leave the site because you can't change our choice of words?

Not at all. You may use any word you please, as far as I'm concerned. I just can't keep coming back to a forum which is calling one of the sections so crucial to disk manufacture, Plating. This should be where myths about the Black Art are disspelled. Although, it sure is a good way to keep the newbs confused...

Please stay, your input no matter how difficult it is for us illiterates to read, is informative and ultimately
helpful which is what this site is supposed to be.

Thanks, man. I thought I had gone rogue on you's guys and was a sort of wing-nut you'd be happy to show the door. I am not trying to be pugnacious, but there is a lot of reactance in this line when it comes to questioning manufacturing terminology. I am after all giving the admin until the Day of the Interntional Proletariat (i.e., May Day) to correct this technical howler. Otherwise I must go back to avatar mode with my nom de plume, Serif....

During the next Season, the admin can research this idea and see if it has teeth. I fear we are exposed. That's why I must otherwise flee. Or at least put some quotation marks on the word so that all will know that we know it's only a slang term and is technically untrue.

You say tomato, I say oranges. Neither of us go hungry.
Now, why does my record distort as it nears the inner diameter?.....

With all due respect, that last question about diameter loss is better aimed at one of the other sections, such as Secrets of the Lathe Trolls. This, on the other hand, is a whole section with a word that would indicate to outside experts (say, web surfing in from the Electrochemical Society) that we have no solid understanding of what it is we are and are not trying to accomplish with our activities.


Since there was once a maker of blanks who did use acetate (according to R. K. Morrison), I'd much rather call a lacquer dubplate an acetate, although it has no acetate on it, than to say I want to have my master plated. That would be a hoot

Cheers,
Andrew

[jjgolden]

I'm still confused...
Regarding the inner diameter distortion comment, I was kidding there.
And to my knowledge you are currently most popular for post hijackings no?

This is all in good humor from me. No disrespect implied here at all

Carry on!

JJG

[gold]

In CD replication, the glass master is not really a master, either, because it is used to make the metal master for injection-moulding replicates.

You are making it up as you go along. Creating the glass master is called mastering in the optical disc business. Ask the landlord guru. Over at the Gearslutz you used that as an example of proper usage of the term

If you try making an electroform without a lacquer you don't have a record. That's a pretty serious problem. You'd need something to make that from. Perhaps "master" would be an appropriate term.

Who spilled the beans that I know the identity of the avatar, Laarsø? No more sound sheets for Blackwood-san, if it were he... hehe

No one spilled the beans. It's painfully obvious.

What Desmond and company are actually doing is not Finishing

I haven't called MC, however, as I am focusing this tirade on people in a position to know.

You should call him and set him straight. He'll like that.