Emile Berliner Gramophone

[tape]

Hello

I have just ordered the Emile Berliner Gramophone- http://www.hlj.com/product/GAK366439

Quote:
Invented in 1887 by Emile Berliner, the gramophone was a huge leap in recording technology, and "record disks" are still in use today! This kit allows you to build your very own gramophone, which will let you record and play back your very own record disks!

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Well, my question is basically if anybody have a tip on how to make a record that is playable on a normal recordplayer with one of these.

It goes aprox. 80 rpm, but thats the smallest problem I guess.

Fidelity is not an issue - I just want to cut a record that can be played on any recordplayer and not destroy the needle.

Thank you in advance.

[cuttercollector]

If the thing cuts a lateral groove, which it appears to looking at the design, it should be playable on a normal player with these issues:

You will have to make it turn steadily enough at some standard speed. Probably 78. Good luck, it's a simple DC motor, but that probably means that the speed will not be steady enough for cutting for any music.

The center hole size will have to match up.

It records small media. Some turntables with automatic arm return etc have trouble playing "in" this far towards the spindle.

Who knows what groove depth and width this thing makes (it's a "Science Fair" toy after all). If it will make a trackable groove, you won't hurt a modern stylus by playing it - unless it carreens wildly across the record and crahses into something.

[buckettovsissors]

well,
I tried ,ive got one of those things.
The main problem is that the motor is not strong enough.
I even carfully used my saphire cutting needle insead of a sewing needle to know avail, when you try to apply a little more pressure to cut a deeper groove the motor stops.
BUT
Its a very funny player, if you have a few records that you dont care about, a 7" will fit on there.

[tape]

Thank you very much for your response - this is indeed good news as I thought it might was impossible.

If the main problem is that the motor stops, I guess it will be possible to replace it with a bigger one....and hopefully not destroy the machine.
You could also control the motorspeed with a potentiometer...

I found the intructions for the machine here: http://www.hlj.com/product/GAK366431

[buckettovsissors]

the motor is not strong enough.
That is the main problem.
Also the angle that you can cut at is limited.

[tape]

well, I have now put this thing together and made my first test cuts.

It is a bit of a hassle to adjust the cutting angle for various materials, but the resulting grooves look surprisingly fine.

The only prblem with the thing seems to be extremely low gain.

I am a beginner in this field, so I hope that any of you might have some suggestions on how to adjust the machine to produce higher volume.
You record into a paper cup, which made me think that there miht were a way to solder an audiocable to the pickup mechanism for recording?
The motorspeed/strenght is a smaller problem, as it can be replaced with a stronger motor, and the cutting-speed adjusted with a potentiometer....

This machine ctually works, and produce grooves that looks like normal vinylgrooves, only a bit bigger in size...

[cuttercollector]

It is an accoustic mechanism.
Try putting a small speaker against the paper cup and driving it with your audio output. Then, on playback hook the speaker up as a microphone for more playback gain through another amp and speaker.

An interesting experiment.....

[buckettovsissors]

I will have to look into getting a better motor for mine.
I tried the speaker to the cup for recording, but still the grooves are not playable with a normal record player.
I think that a sharper point then a needle combined with a loud enough singnal as well as more pressure on the cutting needle could just do the trick.

[tape]

I have changed the needle with another standard sewing needle,
and got double gain! - I have obtained even more gain by making direct contact between the papercup and the speaker so it resonates (you have very gently move the machine towards the speaker as it drifts away when cutting)

But, yes, still the grooves are not deep enough to be played probably - I will also try a more powerfull motor.

I must say that the grooves look very very fine - with the supplied needle you could not see 'movement' in the grooves, but with the seing knife you can.

[tape]

this discussion make think of this: (posted earlier here)

I did some experiments when I was around 14.
I had a lo-fi Garrard ceramic-cartridge turntable, which was
hard on records, the weight was heavy and the needle ruined
good records. I had some flexis with blank sides and a
16-RPM record my granddad got from a blind society which
has 30 seconds of silence between the cuts. I plugged the
turntable into the output of a receiver and experimented
cuttting shallow embossed grooves into the blank sides of
the flexis, and actually got a spooky-sounding voice imprinted
into the silent grooves of the 16rpm (which I recorded at
various speeds) (but I didn't have much to say in the
microphone at the time, and my brother watching wouldn't
say a word). That still plays to this day.

I dont know how it's possilbe to "plug the
turntable into the output of a receiver" but wouldent a standard recordplayer with a strong needle be better than this toy?

I just dont know how to make the needle vibrate.....

[tape]

Something like this:
http://www.televar.com/grshome/75A.JPG

found here:
http://www.televar.com/grshome/Presto2.html

This look basically like a record player, with a needle and a mechanism to make the needle vibrate according to the audio input -

I am sorry if this seems silly, but I am very new to this.

Does any of think it could be possible to make such a mechanism and attach it to a standard recordplayer?

[kd88]

OK, mine came a couple days back.
The package was very enjoyable and rich, despite the language barrier. (I'm not a Japanese speaker/reader!)
But during the course of assembly, I found that the rubberbands provided were too slack. I swapped out these of some tighter bands (left over from free flight rubber powered aircraft experiments!) and then found the mechanical resistance to be quite high. Given this situation, and the taking stock of the experiences others have cited here, I didn't bother with the battery. As cuttercollector suggested elsewhere on-site, a little ohms law can go a long way in these situations. It's not so much that the motor isn't powerful enough, it just doesn't have enough power at its disposal w/ a double a battery. So I tried a 1A variable power supply. The motor ran for a minute, then the protection in the voltage regulator kicked in and it quit. (Draws too much current at 1.5 volts!) So I switched to the good old toy train transformer. This got me going. Of course, again echoing Mr. Cuttercollector, it's a cheap carbon brush DC motor, so the speed is all over the place. I used a strobe to set the speed at just over 80 rpm. (The added resistance of the arm and very clever feed screw plate will drag the motor back down to something like a known speed.)
Now I'm going to cut (heh heh) to the chase: W/out sacrificing the given recording media, which are small discs the size of cds, I cut - using a cd as a template - some of the plastic packaging material into the proper size, made the center hole with a xacto blade, and used an hairdryer to heat the media. This worked. The resulting record could be played using a microgroove stylus(!) with about two grams of force on my ordinary variable speed turntable. It was close to my vocal pitch when I went down to about 70 rpm or so. I set this up by ear...nothing exact. The sound quality is quite good. Speed accuracy is not the strong point, but it is not all over the map.

I tried using the famous solo plate, but that plastic is just too tough, curls with the heat, and does not give a playable groove, even adding weight to the tone arm (either in cutting or playing). Bummer. This thing works, as described, with the page protector weight plastic, and with the plastic heated as the cut is made. Yes, the sound of the blowdryer can be heard on the recording!

Thanks all for getting me over the hump with your suggestions.

Things to try:
-take the arm out and get it over a real turntable.
-try heating the platter (as opposed to the stylus!) with something other than a blow dryer.
-try using some really soft medium (like the old stearic/ceresin formula one might use to make cylinder blanks). Pour this like a pancake onto an aluminum disc. (Or a cardboard circle.) Get the bubbles out with a flame, like they used ta.

If anyone is interested, I'll let you know how I do with these experiments.

[tape]

very interesting discoveries!

I am going to try it with a normal turntable to get exact speed and avoid the motor problems.

I have tried cutting with it without doing any adjustments.
It dont seem to work at all - you get fine looking grooves on cd's ( I changed the needle to a sewing needle and got even finer grooves and more gain)
but the gain is extremely low and the record skips on a normal turntable.
When I am recording talking it,s not possible to understand a single word on playback, sound is totally warped.

Maybe I am doing something wrong, but I dont think so, since I have tried a lot of cutting angles and materials, and furthermore tried to place aloudspeaker in front of the pickup cup playing really loud.

but lets share experiences and hopefully get ths thing to cut....

[flashbk13]

Hi all,
has anyone tried the Edison cylinder version of this toy (from the same company)? Rick.

[tape]

[quote="If anyone is interested, I'll let you know how I do with these experiments.[/quote]

Just wanted to know you have gotten any further results with your suggestions?