Music in the run-out groove?

[concretecowboy71]

A client is asking for their music to extend all the way down to the run-out and final locked groove. If this is possible on a VMS-70, how should I approach thinking about this?

I have thought of several different scenarios, but none seem satisfactory. Has anybody here ever done this?

[cymbalism]

a lot of records have done that dating all the way back to the beatles "sgt pepper's" album. it's pretty common actually, slayer's "reign in blood", the good life "help wanted nights", rush "fly by night", etc etc, too many to list but that's just a select few that have it done - not sure how to do it on a vms though, i'm using a 6N and i can do it on there.

trial and error i would imagine - best of luck w/it!

[mossboss]

This will set you hard man
Here you go
Work it out
T (in bpm) = b beats per measure * (V rpm) * n measures/revolution
Few pointers
1. keep in mind the higher velocity as the lead screw speeds up if you want to do it on :auto: as in vms mode So if you wanted in sync you would have to patch a bit of sound at a slightly diferent speed
2.Leave spiral do its trick lift the head just as it starts the loop and cut a locked groove in the lock, memory says 1.8 sec
3.Experiment and ruin a few lacquers
Cheers

[markrob]

Hi,

You should be able to do this painlessly if you get some cooperation from the artist. Mossy's formula is correct. I'd add that given the short duration of a revolution (1.8 secs at 33), you probably don't want to consider looping more than 1 meaure. The result is that you are very limited in bpm loops that can be used at a given platter speed. At 33.333 R.P.M. in 4/4/ time, you are limited to 133.333 bpm. If you get the artist to agree to this tempo, then you can make this work easily. Just have the artist loop the last bar of the last cut on the side. Loop it more that you need, say 12 times. Cut the side normally. When you hit the point that the looping starts, start your lead out at any time and transition to a locked groove. The loop will be playing during the lead-out and will then sync perfectly once the groove locks. You just need to make sure you lift the head after a bit more than one rotation. Its not that critical as long as you end up with a locked groove and you don't overlap so far as to cut into the base metal. You don't have to worry about Mossy's item 1. The speed of the lead screw has no impact on the playback of the audio. Its true that varing the lead screw speed changes the linear groove velocity, but this happens in the same way during playback. So, it does not matter.

You can get creative if you time the loop in non-measure beats. If the track was in 4/4, you could decide to make the locked loop 1,2, or 3 beats in lenght, for example. Then your loop would need to be 33.333, 66.667, or 99.999 bpm. If you do this, the loop will start to play at 4/4 but when the locked groove plays back, it will loop only 1,2, or 3 beat. The resulting loop will be not start and end on a bar and will vary depening on where you are in the loop when the transition to locked happens. This could be a cool effect.

Mark

[concretecowboy71]

Thanks guys... this is a very noisy, experimental record without much in the way of BPM.

I was thinking along the lines that you guys presented but could not get the math to work out right.

Thanks for the info, this will be of use somewhere down the line though!

[duomo]

I did this several times on my VMS. everything was correct markrob said. One tip more, you can adujst the closing time of your lock groove in your programmer ( on the inside there is one pot for this propose). So the cutterhead will lift exactly after one rotation.
good luck
MO

[mossboss]

Hey all and Mr E
This thread should by under Pro Cutters
By the way All is good and quite helpfull
Good thread and thanks to both D and M for a couple of tidbits in there
Concrete man
Forgot to say that you can also adjust the depth of the lock groove as well as the lead in groove on the little coin slot driven pot so it does not cut to deep and distorts where you have music on the spiral
I am sure you can do it on the fly as it is not memorised in any way
In other words you can have a deeper lead in groove and after that is cut turn the pot back as it only affecte the lead in and out cut
You want to try it on a scrap/test lacquer mark the pot and set it back to the mark
Note: at current prices and a looming price increase I think they will become rare
You need to adjust it back for your normal cuts
Cheers

[Steve E.]

So, what's the length of a loop for a record being cut at 45 rpm? 78 rpm?

(I think this info is just as useful to non pros, personally!)

[markrob]

Hi Steve,


Rotation period = 60/rpm

45 rpm = 1.333 Seconds
78 rpm = .769 Seconds

In bpm asuming 4/4 time 1 measure


45 * 4 = 180 bpm
78 * 4 = 312 bpm

Also note that 78 rpm records varied in speed and at some point, the speed was standardized int the US to 78.26 rpm.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramophone_record

Mark