NEWBIE Forum???

[piaptk]

Hey Steve, Since we now have a "Pros" section, how about a newbie forum? I know some people on here are much willing to put up with us newbies than others, so a forum where we can ask questions and compile info that are obvious to professional cutters would be great. And then responses like BlackNWhite's on the recent thread can stand and be used for a little longer without dropping off or getting in everyones way.

I would be happy to moderate it and copy some beginner threads over to it.

There are a lot of folks out there with a budding interest or at least curiousity and I think that would be a great place for them to start....

[mossboss]

Hey
Aint you getting Help from us old foggies man?
Yeah you may be right though
Personally I get a bit peeved when newbieis do not use the search facility which works quite well which I point out to them
Else we sound like a very long "locked groove"
Cheers

[piaptk]

Hey
Aint you getting Help from us old foggies man?
Yeah you may be right though
Personally I get a bit peeved when newbieis do not use the search facility which works quite well which I point out to them
Else we sound like a very long "locked groove"
Cheers

I am definitely learning a LOT from you guys. Unfortunately, the search function isn't always that helpful when you don't know the vocabulary or the information is buried inside a thread about something else. Why I'm thinking is that, if we have a newbies forum, then people who are curious but hvent actually started cutting can get a better grasp about the nuts and bolts of cutting. There is a lot of tech talk that isn't easily understood (or pertinent to) by those unfamiliar with the INS and outs. A newbie forum would give them a place to start so that they don't have to ask super basic questions at first. Might also make it easier to weed out spam! Haha

[mossboss]

Piaptk
Yes I do agree with you
By the way Here is my view on the mater
Question: Why do you and others take the view that this is an easy Task?
It is not
That is the reason that it takes years of parctice so as to get a good result
Look I am not having a go at you that is the way it is I am afraid
The problem is the fact that using antiquated machines at the $300-$1000 range today these where made in the days gone past around 40-50 years ago
Even to get to hear something that you did yourself it was like a miracle
No one really cared about sound quality that much
So long you could hear it it was a great result
Now when someone gets one of this things and expects to get reasonable results it is just not going to happen
I have seen more than enough of the old advertissements to know that advertising works today as it did in those days
The msg was
"Make your own Records It is Easy with our whiz bang cutting system"
and "Call So and So now for a demo" "Used by artist worldwide"
"Over 10,000 sold" etc etc etc
It seems that people are reading these very same ads today
Once again
There is no issue in helping newbies at all in actual fact all of us here do our fair share in that regard
You can see the posts relating to newbies they are in the major that is for sure
My point is that one does need to spend a lot of time and effort so as to become somewhat proficient
Reading posts here is a damn good start as there is enough covering quite a lot of issues
It is much easier as you said to get the nuts and bolts first but I am afraid that does need a lot of effort on its own right
In my view if one is to spend the necessary time reading various post's even if it does not sink in at the time the time will come when it all falls into place
That is when you start cutting on any machine regardless
It will make sense as it will "Click"
Look a simple example would be this: most people use a photocopier but very few know how it works
One cannot adopt this philosophy when attempting to get to grips with record cutting
There is just to much knowledge required so as to get a reasonable result it is far from plug and play which unfortunatelly has got in most of our minds due to the computer age
Further these things are based on some simple very old tecnology so one needs the background know how so as to use them
It simply takes time
Also
Spam is bad but we are getting better in clobering them before they become painful and our esteemed ES will most likely get a human activated code when people are attempting to join this forum so as to get rid at least of the autobots or whetever they are called
Cheers

[appache]

i am in agreement with both of you

-i do photography, i am no pro (at the moment) and ahve been at it for a year or two. im now starting to get some fantastic photos

anyone can take shots with a point and shoot - but using yer DSLR on manual and controling everything is no easy task.

there is a MAJOR difference with cutting recs and taking photos...and here it is

info on photography is MUCH MORE PROMINENT

i have red my cameras manual about 3 times over the course of three years, and only the third time did i understand everything FULLY because of the terminology actually sinking in, and me know where the features are and such

you can find tons of books at libraries , in shops, online - plus tons of info - ideas and whatnots howtos n stuff online

--------------------
if been strugglin to find info (i finally found this place , by luck) - i never go on youtube though so prob why i didnt think of looking for info there

anyways the point is - the info is more buried than in other hobbies / carrers

i totally agree with you that everyone expects shit to be plug n play nowadays - but people with that view on things will fail at being good at everything unless they change their mentality into puting time and effort in things.

i dont think it is fair that you are putting all newbies into the same bowl and seem to be pushing the idea to let us on our own and do our own diggin - maybe i am not grasping your point of view right - but thats what im reading

what i am suggesting (listed in my thread) is making info AVAILABLE

perhaps not a step by step how to - while holding my hand and singing suthing songs - but making info available to those who want to learn

those who want to learn , will take time t learn - those who dont just wont

some might decide its too much work for them

some might see it challenging - when given the real 411 on how it works, expected results with such and such and whatnot

obviously if i am using a machine from the 30s to do my own recs for fun - i cant expect it to sound like something pressed by pros

but then again - i read in another thread that - someone skilled using a "shittier" machine could obtain better results than someone unskilled using a "hi-fi" (?correct term?) machine.

stll this is a bit unclear as to - will that person have decent results, or is it implying that simply the "shity" machine - which produces low quality machine - will sound better than someone who has no idea what hes doing on a 10k machine

is it both?

some misconceptions gotta be cleared up too you know

perhaps this info can help sort out and eliminate people who shouldnt be geting into this - or are getting into this for the wrong ideas

all in all i think the newbie forum is a terrific idea, and think of the first time you rode a bike - when you took off training wheels, someone was there to give you a lil push - but if you fell, it was up to you to get up again and try it all over....

-the defence rests your honor

[piaptk]

Moss:

I think we probably very much agree with each other, but there is just a slight miscommunication.

As far as me thinking it is an "easy" hobby, I, of ALL people, definitely don't (anymore), as referenced by my post in the other thread. When I first started (as I'm sure a lot of newbies do), I thought "Well, it's been around for 70+ years, and I'm a big 21st century man, surely I can do it with limited effort!". I was quickly proven wrong once I got the 6N.

I guess with a newbie forum, it would be a good place to dispell that misconception to people and get them started down the road of seeing whether it is even a hobby they would care to start, given the work involved. It would cut down on the number of people who pop in, ask questions, take active members time, don't contribute anything, and disappear.

Anyway, we are probably getting bogged down in semantics. That all being said, I very much appreciate everyone here who have helped me out... As appache said, the amount of info out there is pretty negligble (relative to everything else on the internet). I hope to be able to contribute more as I get slogging away at it! As it is now, I can only contribute what NOT to do for newbs! ha

[mratx]

I think a beginners section might be helpful if only because people would feel less reluctant to ask what might be be very rudimentary questions, and more experienced users could ignore the forum if they want to. Plus, for people just starting out, it's an obvious area to start looking when they first get to the site. As Mossboss said, there's a large distance between newbie just trying to get something on a disc and professional cutter, and it might help to direct people starting out in the right direction, or just serve those people whose ambitions are just very basic.



Mark

[Simon]

I agree there needs to be a newbie section.

This would allow all the people who are just looking because they have found or purchased an old suitcase lathe a chance to have an incite to the basic facts.

This would also help with the learning curve fundamentals.

Hardware

Cutting Lathe
Cutting Amp
Cutting head
Cutting stylus

Power supplies - Hrz etc

Reverse RIAA - the basics

Software etc

How to setup your system with a test record.


Media does and don't

Acetate New and old

Plastic


And the list goes on


A basic FAQ sticky would do the trick.

[emorritt]

I'm not sure "newbies" are thinking it's an 'easy' endeavor or complain that getting good results is too difficult - I think it's more of an expectations game. Ebay has caused just about every market to go totally insane. I purchased a transcription lathe from a radio station in 1977 for $75. Then later got a few other consumer machines and another transcription machine in the $100 to $400 range in the 1980's. Suddenly since the 90's when eBay came around everything is "Rare Rare RARE!!!!!!!!" Sorry, it's not. Yes, you don't see it every day, but it's not like finding the Loch Ness Monster in your backyard swimming pool. Same applies to all the art, antiques, audio and video equipment etc. that's put on there daily. People see things and start bidding like crazy and over the last 15 years have overinflated the market on just about everything. Even in the antique phonograph collecting hobby it used to be a "friendly" market, even the rarer machines going for a reasonable price and the Union show was a 'fun' event. Now, it's an Edison Standard (common as dirt) going for $800 and up and phono collectors events are cutthroat and nasty.

So, point being that a newbie buys a Recordio, Presto, Masco - you name the brand, and pays $400+ for it. They get it set up - usually without the benefit of an instruction manual so most of their information comes bit and piece from forums like ours (or vintage electronics, etc.). The get a few usable blanks, a good cutting stylus, then instead of recording from the radio or microphone they attempt to pump techno at +5 - +7 into the poor old machine and either blow the cutter or end up with 100% total harmonic distortion. Then the posts come "wha'd I do wrong??" "its supposed to be stereo isn't it"? etc. Now, this isn't everyone, but most younger people who get their first machine expect it to sound at least like a good .mp3, but consumer machines may not be capable of what they expect and semi-pro machines may either need work or some tweeking to at least come close. And again, when someone who hasn't studied disk cutting and it's technologies it's difficult for them to understand just why their prized new machine isn't putting out what they want.

So as far as being an "easy" hobby, the first thing in a beginners forum should be a warning that even using an old consumer machine can frustrate you to the point of throwing it in a dumpster. They weren't easy to use when they were made, but not impossible to get good results with a little patience and learning about the process. Also, many who are new to the hobby don't rebuild electronics - they may get the cutter and pickup serviced so they work, or change a few tubes, but without getting into any old unit and replacing many of the vintage components, they simply won't produce sound that an average 20-something today would consider "acceptable".

Sorry for the soap box, but I think these factors are where a lot of "newbs" get discouraged and start posting, giving poor Moss a migraine.

[Simon]

Fantastic - what a great post - it had me rolling around on the floor - you are so right.

[Tron]

This site was not as crowded and seemed to be more bright eyed experimenters having fun and learning as they go.

The whole thing about being a newbie is you need to get in where you fit in, look around and don't expect the whole game to be spoon fed to you in one reply to a "i'm a newbie" introduction.

I'm not a expert nor a newbie and thats perfect to me.

I do feel there is a bit of an elite vibe that has started to grow on here and it has really started to suck. It's really not so serious that when a dreamer comes along and wants to open a record pressing plant they instantly get belittled.

I always wanted to have a record press, it did not take long for me to see that it is not a simple thing to do. I saw that without anyone making a mockery of a first time post. It's really starting to be a little embarrassing to the Lathe Troll forum that someone can't come on here without getting a bunch of people who have been there and done that trippin on them.

I do think all these sub-forums of sub-sections are starting to jump the shark !

Keep it simple Steve like it was when you got it going. I learned a lot by just reading what people have to say and buying lathes and stuff and just messing around. If it worked for me cool, if not pass it on to someone else to see what they can do.

I never get on here saying much but its starting to really get away from i know this forum to be. All the dudes who've been there and done that need to remember you were a newbie once too and stop killing people's spirit. If someone wants to dream about something let them they will find out on there own if its a dream or reality.

Respect

[opcode66]

I agree with a lot of what Tron is saying. Why drive someone away? The best thing to do is to share knowledge, wisdom and experience. Together we all grow.

You never know who someone is or what they are capable of. With a little guidance there might be someone who via their own means could do what you yourself were unable to at some time in the past.

I thought the whole point of this forum was to keep vinyl alive and current. Pooh Poohing peoples dreams isn't going to help do that. Especially dropping on younger enthusiasts. They will grow up to be the ones who will replace us. Sure they might be overly optimistic but I'm sure we all were at that age...

Let's keep the knowledge and positive support flowing!!!

[emorritt]

I definitely agree Tron; there are a few users who like to stomp on people without thinking first, hey, I was there are some point in my life... Yes, you may "know it all" now but in the study of any discipline, there is no place for 'attitude'. I also tend to agree that searching for things can bring less than helpful results, especially if you don't know terminology or exactly how to describe what you're looking for to the search engine.

I've been doing this for nearly 30 years now and I still don't profess to know everything there is to know. No matter at what stage of the process, recording, mastering, cutting, plating or pressing, engineering of any kind is a life long learning experience and as far as I'm concerned, those with experience have an obligation to help those who are willing to learn along the way, if any form of art or science is to be continued and improved.

[thomas]

Thought the entire forum was geared toward the deviants, renegades & experimenters?

Any part of the process is both a never ending adventure and gamble.

You could get upset at the catty postings, or write them off and move on.

Forewarning is bittersweet, why not encourage?

[MEGAMIKE]

ITS EASY just do it...
i built my first head in 12mins..where do i start....
drive a horse needle through a small speaker,turn the vol up,position your arm(like a lathe) over a good turntable ,use a plastic plate like a dinner plate,and there you go ..
..it sounded like shit but i did it ..

thats the first newbie post.....hahahahah

[Steve E.]

I do think all these sub-forums of sub-sections are starting to jump the shark !

Honestly, I agree. I don't get it. I think "Plating and Pressing" turned out to be a useful section, as evidenced by the number of topics posted on it. I guess one could argue that I didn't really set up the "pro" section the way Simon had suggested:

https://lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?t=1550&mforum=lathetrolls

But MY whole point in setting this site up is that it should be fun. I like the sprawling nature of things. I think chaos and messiness breeds creativity. That's why this is called "the secret society of lathe trolls" and not "the superserious forum of audiological engineers and neumann scully yaditty yaddites." I am not competitive with this thing, and I think having such a site would be just fine.

I am a newbie, and I started this thing. As far as I'm concerned the whole thing should be newbie. It makes me sad if newbies feel they are "annoying" people. awww man. The whole point is supposed to be to ask questions and get encouragement, no matter if you are business minded or an artist or hobbyist.

So, hey y'all, listen. Be nice to newbies! seriously!

Other than that, why DO people want subsections? Perhaps people feel information is getting lost in the shuffle. I set up the "reference" section to try to deal with that a little, though I have not tended to move threads into it as often as would probably be most helpful. I thought the idea for a lathe trolls wiki was a good one. That's probably the most organic way to keep track of information. But like everything, it requires help and technical "policing."

You know what would help my confusion? when people ask for changes here, explain what hunger is driving it. like "I want ______ and am finding I am not getting it because there's no _____________ or too much ____________" I found Tron's posting helpful in this regard.

my 2 cents. or 10 cents. I think this kind of discussion is good. keep talkin'. something positive will come out of it. don't let my words shut the discussion down. keep going.

[Steve E.]

All that said....the "pro" section didn't take off at all. So maybe there's something to be said for replacing it with a newbie section. I dunno.

[Steve E.]

ITS EASY just do it...
i built my first head in 12mins..where do i start....
drive a horse needle through a small speaker,turn the vol up,position your arm(like a lathe) over a good turntable ,use a plastic plate like a dinner plate,and there you go ..
..it sounded like shit but i did it ..

thats the first newbie post.....hahahahah

but see? I love that!!

[mossboss]

Arghhhh
Well I think that Thomas has posted a good reply to the whole thing May be I have seen to many guys getting burned and loosing interest on the whole thing which is not good
Tron has certainly good points as well as just about every other poster on this thread
My post's in this very forum are there for all to see In my view I do not discourage I warn people of the cost as well as the dedication needed If they so wish to go ahead I do not think that any one would stop them regardless
Emoritt has also pointed out some very valid points
I get exasperated as well as disappointed to see people blowing hard earned money away first than get here for help AFTER the event
Nine times out of ten most of us here will get them out of the mess and get them to the people who can help out or point them to the right direction
I am not so certain that there is such thing as Hey don't do it, more like yeah do it but be Aware of what it entails and do not expect miracles from a machine that was made 50 odd years ago even though you need to spend the same amount for the blanks which is the most expensive part of the whole thing
Steve E
The pro section is not really an issue One will find pro post's (here or questions raised which should be there) spread throughout various sections
I think it is a case of "shifting post's" in other words time to go through every post so as to ascertain where it should be which is a lot to ask
Cheers

[mossboss]

A further thought
It does not seem that despite what has been posted about newbies here there are any less people coming up to join ask questions and move on
The statistics bare that out
They indicate that activity remains about the same as it has since I joined
So it seems that despite what has been posted in this thread the forum does attract members mostly newbies who are certainly anxious to learn the craft
I am sure that the mixture of old foggies and the young whipper snappers here make for a good mix
I am just wondering what would be the case otherwise In other words no mentors or the "old farts"
Cheers