Wilcox Gay Recordio model 6A10

[RecordLabelTroll]

Hey fellows,
I just got a Wilcox-Gay Recordio (not the porno) model 6a10 (Craigslist, there was one on Ebay recently but that's a coincidence. Weird thing was they were both from Wisconsin like 2 hrs away, put online around the same time)

It's pretty dope and I worked out all the bad grease to make the motor 33-78/lathe run smoothly.

The amp crackles a bit, but I got a guy who can fix it dirt cheap. Its not really an issue just a little noise here and there, I think its a capacitor or the master volume knob has to get a little more cleaning inside.

I am currently growing my own crystals haha to refuel the cutter head. I feel like the Wizard.

If that don't work I'll go to Gibs but I'll let you all know how it turns out with my home brew crystals.

QUESTIONS:

1) Would a gramophone needle fit in the Astatic cutting head?

2) I assume the LOUD needles cut louder than the SOFT needles, anyone know?

3) Does anyone have any recordings of a Wilcox Gay Recordio (not the porno and not a Recordette) on Poly Carbonate (not CD).

Reason being gramophone needles are cheap and I could sharpen a bunch to get long runs cut.
I have a cheap supplier of PolyCarbonate .04 at around $1.50 for a 12''.

I'll be cutting bands selling records nasty cheap like $3.50 a 7'' because of the lo-fi results
The bands I know are into that kinda recording anyways (without being on vinyl)

I book bands on tours right now and this would be another way to help them out on the road with some cool DIY merch.

If anyone can answer the questions I'd appreciate it a lot.

Thanks,

The Wizard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cKkdwAaljM

[Angus McCarthy]

Welcome to the club, man! Recordios are great machines for learning the core concepts of cutting.

The cutting head should easily accept the shaft of a gramophone needle. Now, when you talk about grinding down gram needles to "cut" with do you mean grind them into flat cutting styli or truncate the tip for embossing? My first "successful" test disc was made on a Recordio embossing a CD with a plain, unaltered gram needle:
https://soundcloud.com/electrospinner/wilcox-gay-record-lathe-test
There are some other vids floating around on Youtube of various materials being cut or embossed on Recordios; straight-up polycarb might be one of them.

I'm not sure if the "loud" vs "soft" tone needles translate the same into embossing/cutting. There's probably some small bearing on the result based on the composition of the steel and the thickness of the needle.

[RecordLabelTroll]

Cool, I'm digging the recording.

I replaced the cutting head crystal with a large Piezo buzzer and got noise out of it.

I really appreciate the the answer you gave, now I can get some of those grandma phone needles

The loud ones make sense to me so I'll give those a whirl

The first cut I did was with a sewing needle in the cutting head just to see if the lathe was running right.

My poly disk turned out swell on 33 with the lines never overlapping or too jolty for a phonograph needle to catch.

As for the embossing vs cutting, I'm just looking to emboss

Straight outta the box sounds alright with yours so thats cool

The thing is about my crystal replacement is I dont know how loud the head is suppose to be.

I guess I'll send it the West Tech eventually for proper replacement, as my crystal didn't grow.

If it all comes down to being a bummer turn out I got a franken lathe, which is worth my money

The high torque tables are so expensive and there's no lathe

The magnetic heads seem to be pretty boss for starters or polycuts.

Would you know if they would match with the 500ohm amp or would I have to use a 4-8ohm for a magnetic head?

I'll leave you with a cool song, thanks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMqPzQdaBn8 (someone should cut it and put it on here)

[RecordLabelTroll]

http://www.steminc.com/piezo/PZ_PLATEViewPN.asp?PZ_Type=PIEZO%20PLATE&PZ_SM_MODEL=SMPL26W16T07111

I'm pretty sure that would make a really good replacement crystal, better than the very small layer of piezo element on the buzzer I got

[Angus McCarthy]

You do not want to try driving an 8-ohm head with a 500-ohm amp. The results will not be pretty. There are magnetic heads wound for 500, 16, or 8 ohms, depending on what you come across. A few trolls have re-wound their 500-ohm heads for 8 or 16, since 500-ohm amps have not been common since the 40s. If you're looking for a magnetic head that will fit the Recordio you need to keep an eye open for an Astatic M-41 head. They came in both 8 and 500-ohm windings.

https://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2037

In the "Recordette" subforum there is some discussion on using new bits of piezo material to repair crystal heads. The problem seems to lie in what you've found - that the readily available material is big enough to act as a pickup, but is not well suited to the demands of a cutting head. I suspect West-Tech has a bulk supply of piezo material that is cut large enough to generate motion suitable for cutting heads.

[domignostika]

Hey Guys!
Newbie here who also just got a W.G. 6a10!

Mine seems to work alright with a little maintenance so far; got the 33/78 to work correctly after slipping. Although I do have some questions.

My Cutter head is working/cutting/making noise; what is the best way to tell when one needs replacement. Do they just go dead/no sound, or less fidelity over time?

To anyone who has really dug into a Recordio, what is the best way to open these machines up? The turntable platterholder/ cutter and playback arms are all connected on a detachable base. This or the front switch/ input panel look like the best options to perform some maintenance, but I am not sure. Input and radio jack connections need some work, and I may replace the motor.


Should any additional weight be added on top of the cutter arm for deeper cuts in say laserdisc or any other alternative media?

And lastly, for the more experienced cutters, are Recordios and other 'suitcase' lathes preferable for cutting the more experimental media out there? Are cd's laserdiscs and picnic plates being cut by 6n owners? Thanks!

[tragwag]

I've had a Recordette, and they're not that easy to get into.
The Recordio looks easier to work on, but these were intended for home users so I assume there weren't many serviceable parts.

With the crystal cutting heads, unless they've been restored, they are dead or working very poorly.
At its best, the frequency response will be something like 200Hz - 5 kHz, so don't expect much.

I've found the motors on the wilcox machines can't handle any additional weight put on the arm, the TT torque is just not enough.
Even with the recordette, the drag of the stylus is enough to slow it down/stop it for a second.

I've cut CD's/Laserdiscs on the wilcox as well as the Presto 6N.
Either will work, but the adjustable options on the 6N make it far easier to dial in a less noisy cut.

Hope that helps some!

[domignostika]

Thanks Tragwag, definitely some good info!

Yeah I want to get this thing open and do some cleaning. My line inputs take ALOT of juice to get any sound from the head,and very little from the speaker. Probably a tube and cutter head problem.

The Mic didn't come with it, but the speaker buzzes and pipes up fine when I tap my finger on the end of the old screw/input. Can this input be removed? Or at least transformed into a 1/4 inch? More experimenting on the way..

[Angus McCarthy]

If there's low power from the amp it's more likely to be dried out capacitors, rather than tubes, though they could be burn(ing) out as well.

[45rpmdude]

Who fixed it on The cheap. Did you know who.??? Pls share a link..

[Steve E.]

My first cutter was a Wilcox Gay Recordio 6B30, so your mileage may vary. I don't know your model, though it looks somewhat similar to mine. Gib Epling did the restoration, 8 years ago. I am under the impression he is no longer doing these sorts of restorations.

I have had great results using the Recordio steel needles that were designed to cut on Recordios. They may be a harder steel than those used to play back records on Victrolas. I have a sanding stone, and I have been able to resharpen the Recordio needles, by hand, using that stone.

Standard steel Victrola needles are deliberately soft, so as to shape themselves into the grooves of 1920s style shellac records. They are formulated to be used for one play only, and then discarded.

I understand that Peter King uses Victrola needles. I believe he home-brewed some tooling to cut an angle onto them. Look around here, maybe this is detailed?

I would think that "loud" Victrola needles would have a different effect than "quiet" ones, but I wouldn't assume WHAT effect that would be. I'd hypothesize that they would be louder, but it is worth doing experiments. I believe that the thick louder ones flex less and therefore lose less energy to heat.

If I WERE to use Victrola needles, I would probably heat them to glowing orange in a flame, and then quench them in water. Theoretically, at least, that would harden them, though maybe they have already been through that process? Try it. See what happens, and report back.

The adjustment of tonearm height, and the spring adjustment under the arm, affect the quality of cut enormously. And the total thickness of the cutting medium, as measured vertically from the turntable, are crucial, too. That might seem obvious, but it is a detail I missed for a long time. I'd adjust for cutting a poly material, but then I'd tape a picnic plate onto a poly blank without adjusting the tonearm height upwards. Great way to kill a cutting needle.

[45rpmdude]

I have one of each. But there all apart. Need tlc. Gib will fixx it for me but I thin k ill just use the basics. Still want a spkr for the head. I can't get a ceramic crystal.. I'm picky of sound. So want it descent. S o I can cut records for my radio show I'm trying to get off the ground. 6a10 -- 6b30.. also it has to be converted to 8 ohm so its compatible with all my radios and amp.

[recordboy]

Noob to cutting/embossing (Baby Troll).

I now have one of these too. (Along with a recordette & two Edison Voicewriters)

Great info in here!

I'm sure I'll have some questions...

Like what is that rec. light called, and where might I source one?

On further inspection, I now notice it looks like it is not there...

I hope this thing is not gutted

Hopefully it is just dangling inside...

It looked so damn clean I totally missed this

Help please... If it is missing (and the only part missing) how might I replace it?
are there alternatives, like a meeter that I could hook up, which actually would give a better reading, etc.?

Cheers

[markrob]

Hi,

I believe that is a standard eye tube. The 6E5/6U5 were a pretty common back then. They are available as used or NOS. Also some subs that can be used with some modification (1629 for example).

Mark

[recordboy]

Thanx!!!

might I also ask, is the magic eye even necessary for recording? Like does it complete the circuit and won't record sound without it installed? Or is it just a handy tool, which without it I'd just have to shoot in the dark with trial and error till I get the level I want?

thanx again

[markrob]

Hi,

No not really needed. you might even be better off with a VU meter adapted to work with the unit. I guess it depends if you want to restore the Wilcox as it was designed or if you don't mind hacking it. With some thought, you could use only the mechanical portion of the cutter and interface the head to a modern solid state amp. I believe the cutter heads on these machines are crystal types. This means you will most likely need to re-build it or sub in a magnetic unit. The magnetic heads are much easier to interface to modern amp as they are low impedance devices similar to a speaker. The crystal heads are high impedance and need some special considerations to drive them with a solid state amp. The electronics on the Recordio's are pretty simple, so you should be able to have it restored with little trouble if you desire. The head is the big issue here.

Mark

[recordboy]

Thanx Mark...

Yes my first inquiry was asking about a VU meter, yet that term was also escaping me...

So how does one go about doing such a mod, because I would like something more like that.
I have also seen on here the user frankenlathe (I think that's it) who modded his Recordio with a home built head etc. (I am considering this). I also have a Recrodette that I was thinking about modding in that manner too...

Thing is I do not have a modern amp as of yet, so this will have to wait a bit.

Though I am most interested in the VU mod to start, yet haven't a clue as to how to go about it...

Though also if I find a magic eye super cheap, I wight go that route too. Though still the VU meter interests me greatly...

-Cheers

[markrob]

Hi,

You can find used 6E5's in the $10-$30 range. New will run more.

http://www.tubedepot.com/nos-6e5-u.html

I'd get the Recordio up and running first before sinking any money into the eye tube.

As far as VU metering goes. A true VU meter can be expensive ($50 and up). They are probably overkill for this application. If you search on-line, you can find some bar graph meters with VU like ballistics (and maybe even peak hold options) that might be a better bet. No matter what you decide, the meter has to be calibrated for the signal level you want to reference. This will depend on where you tap into the audio chain. An obvious place is right at the cutter head. In the case of a crystal head, you are working in the 100 volt AC RMS range. So the meter input has to be scaled to read 0 VU at this operating level. That is done with a resistor voltage divider and is used to drop the voltage down to the voltage level that the meter you select requires.

Mark

[recordboy]

Thanx bunches Mark, You are very helpful indeed. I have been looking on ebay and found 1 selling for 12$ NOS -and yeah if I don't need it to make a recording I shall just keep looking... I should have the unit in a week or two and know more of what exactly I am looking at as far as restore goes... Maybe by chance the eye will be in there *fingers crossed*. I know I am looking at about 35 buck to have the crystal replaced, and to me that is a big chunk of the entire price paid for the unit, so another even $20 for the eye would be a bit much. I am super excited and thank you again. I'll post some more when it comes and I look inside etc.

-cheers

[Mulchefye]

replying to a 2 yr old thread...lol...just finally got my pair of Wilcox / Recordio platters and yep they really ARE gay, and im feeling rather gay having finally got em....i did 2 vidz about em, both posted here as well as some pix...i NEED a cutting head...i have two that came with em, one that appears to be original, and an Astatic x-26 (please see pix)...i dont care which one i get my hands on, either or...but i would perhaps be willing to trade the 2 burnt ones for a working one OR an entire platter for a working one....if anyone can help plz com shakehousecircus@gmail.com cuz i really REALLY dont know what the hell i am doing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEXANwh1Ar8 part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diTo9BHM0KY part 2