Is stereo embossing possible?
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- marchingband
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:47 am
- Location: halifax, canada
Is stereo embossing possible?
Greetings Trolls
I have combed the site for any info on embossing in stereo, but have come up relatively empty handed.
Has anyone succeeded at this task? If so would you be willing to share any details?
With the new stereo heads becoming available, this could be an exciting upgrade for those who love to emboss/impress!
thank you!!
I have combed the site for any info on embossing in stereo, but have come up relatively empty handed.
Has anyone succeeded at this task? If so would you be willing to share any details?
With the new stereo heads becoming available, this could be an exciting upgrade for those who love to emboss/impress!
thank you!!
yo
Re: Is stereo embossing possible?
The answer is surprisingly simple: It is possible to emboss a stereophonic groove on a blank, if using a suitable stylus in a suitable head.
HOWEVER: Due to mainly geometrical considerations, it is not possible to properly reproduce such a disk, with currently available reproduction equipment.
Furthermore, none of the commercially available stereophonic cutterheads will accept a commercially available embossing stylus.
There is a certain individual called Rich Flores, who has put in a significant amount of effort in doing just that. I am not up to date with his progress at present, but he did manufacture his own embossing styli to fit a Westrex 3D cutterhead and was embossing with this setup. I am not sure if he was embossing stereophonic information though. I also have no idea if he somehow managed to get around the geometric incompatibility issue for reproduction of stereophonically embossed disks.
In any case, he would be the most appropriate person to ask.
My own efforts have been very limited in this respect. I simply tried a few things out to confirm my theoretical understanding of the matter, which I did, and thus did not pursue this any further.
I mainly cut lacquer masters nowadays, but I did experiment with a variety of different techniques out of curiosity.
HOWEVER: Due to mainly geometrical considerations, it is not possible to properly reproduce such a disk, with currently available reproduction equipment.
Furthermore, none of the commercially available stereophonic cutterheads will accept a commercially available embossing stylus.
There is a certain individual called Rich Flores, who has put in a significant amount of effort in doing just that. I am not up to date with his progress at present, but he did manufacture his own embossing styli to fit a Westrex 3D cutterhead and was embossing with this setup. I am not sure if he was embossing stereophonic information though. I also have no idea if he somehow managed to get around the geometric incompatibility issue for reproduction of stereophonically embossed disks.
In any case, he would be the most appropriate person to ask.
My own efforts have been very limited in this respect. I simply tried a few things out to confirm my theoretical understanding of the matter, which I did, and thus did not pursue this any further.
I mainly cut lacquer masters nowadays, but I did experiment with a variety of different techniques out of curiosity.
~~~ Precision Mechanical Engineering, Analog Disk Mastering ~~~
Agnew Analog Reference Instruments: http://www.agnewanalog.com
Agnew Analog Reference Instruments: http://www.agnewanalog.com
Re: Is stereo embossing possible?
also worth mentioning that peter king technically embosses stereo grooves using homemade stereo heads and sharpened victrola needles.
making lathe cuts on a Presto 6N, HIFI stereo cuts on vinylrecorder
at Audio Geography Studios, Providence, RI USA
http://www.audiogeography.com
at Audio Geography Studios, Providence, RI USA
http://www.audiogeography.com
Re: Is stereo embossing possible?
Indeed, I realised shortly after posting that I forgot to mention Peter King. He is also one of the nicest guys to talk to in this business, although he doesn't do internet, so you'll need to write a letter or give him a call.
With his method, there is still the issue of geometric incompatibility with common reproduction systems, especially audible on the vertical component.
With his method, there is still the issue of geometric incompatibility with common reproduction systems, especially audible on the vertical component.
~~~ Precision Mechanical Engineering, Analog Disk Mastering ~~~
Agnew Analog Reference Instruments: http://www.agnewanalog.com
Agnew Analog Reference Instruments: http://www.agnewanalog.com
Re: Is stereo embossing possible?
I don't think this is the same thing exact,ly but I know a couple guys (neither of them on here) that have been trying to emboss on old CGS linear velocity discs with the lateral on one side and the vertical on the other side. If they had two embossers and mounted an e.g. Soundscriber vertical head on one and left the CGS lateral head on the other - or whether they tried a Cook/Livingston setup or what exactly I can't remember.
I do know the other guy was experimenting with a reversed Grey Audograph stylus awhile ago (remember they have a V shaped groove only on one side with a straight edge on the other as if somebody put a letter I in the center of a V and only used half) - and I know he had a local machinist make a double-pitch lead screw for it to make room for the other mirror image groove - but that was maybe 4-5 yrs ago and haven't talked to him or the other guy since.
I'll dig up their emails and see if I can re-initialize contact and get an update.
I do know the other guy was experimenting with a reversed Grey Audograph stylus awhile ago (remember they have a V shaped groove only on one side with a straight edge on the other as if somebody put a letter I in the center of a V and only used half) - and I know he had a local machinist make a double-pitch lead screw for it to make room for the other mirror image groove - but that was maybe 4-5 yrs ago and haven't talked to him or the other guy since.
I'll dig up their emails and see if I can re-initialize contact and get an update.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)
Re: Is stereo embossing possible?
Sounds interesting. My comments were referring exclusively to the established 45/45 stereophonic microgroove system as commonly used and (almost) standardised to the present day.
It is of course entirely possible to use a variety of different non-standard methods to record sound mechanically onto different objects, and it will work, but will most likely not be compatible with a standard consumer turntable intended for 45/45 reproduction.
It is of course entirely possible to use a variety of different non-standard methods to record sound mechanically onto different objects, and it will work, but will most likely not be compatible with a standard consumer turntable intended for 45/45 reproduction.
~~~ Precision Mechanical Engineering, Analog Disk Mastering ~~~
Agnew Analog Reference Instruments: http://www.agnewanalog.com
Agnew Analog Reference Instruments: http://www.agnewanalog.com
Re: Is stereo embossing possible?
Remember though that embossing styli are never the same size or produce a groove in the same shape as a normal cutting styli - so playing back an embossed record on a normal turntable with a normal stylus is going to be only passable at best. Adding in constant linear recording (CGS/Grey Audograph/Memovox etc) just complicates matters.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)
Re: Is stereo embossing possible?
Yes, that was exactly my point, along with the fact that it is not just stylus shape alone but also the plane of modulation and rake angle being different due to the common practice of tilting the cutterhead for embossing.
~~~ Precision Mechanical Engineering, Analog Disk Mastering ~~~
Agnew Analog Reference Instruments: http://www.agnewanalog.com
Agnew Analog Reference Instruments: http://www.agnewanalog.com
- meltingpotsound
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:59 am
- Location: New York City
- Contact:
Re: Is stereo embossing possible?
The answer is NO
I've worked on this for more than a year embossing variouse plastics and faceting two different cone tip angles for theWestrex cutter head stylus, 87 degrees and 90 degrees hoping to get a good stereo separation. It did not happened much to my surprise.
The good new is with the 87 degrees styli minus 4db from the standard 0 reference level at 7 cm, excellent audio you can actually A&B the playback and it's dam good.
The 90 degrees styli reproducing at -5db slightly less.
Different grades of polycarbonate can have more or less surface noise, CD's having the best results and Makrolon having more noise.
Rich Flores
I've worked on this for more than a year embossing variouse plastics and faceting two different cone tip angles for theWestrex cutter head stylus, 87 degrees and 90 degrees hoping to get a good stereo separation. It did not happened much to my surprise.
The good new is with the 87 degrees styli minus 4db from the standard 0 reference level at 7 cm, excellent audio you can actually A&B the playback and it's dam good.
The 90 degrees styli reproducing at -5db slightly less.
Different grades of polycarbonate can have more or less surface noise, CD's having the best results and Makrolon having more noise.
Rich Flores
- 2bitcomputer
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:53 am
Re: Is stereo embossing possible?
@marchingband
I am interested in the fact that you were doing faceting -
Would you mind sharing what kind and size of lap you used and at what RPM?
And what material were you faceting?
Thanks...
I am interested in the fact that you were doing faceting -
Would you mind sharing what kind and size of lap you used and at what RPM?
And what material were you faceting?
Thanks...
- marchingband
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:47 am
- Location: halifax, canada
Re: Is stereo embossing possible?
I am not sure what you mean by faceting ... can you clarify the question?
yo
- 2bitcomputer
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:53 am
Re: Is stereo embossing possible?
The faceting questions should have been @meltingpotsound
Faceting is the shaping and sharpening of the cutter stylus and I'm interested in sharpening my own stylus.
There is a lot of information out there about faceting rocks and gems but I haven't found much info on faceting diamonds.
Faceting is the shaping and sharpening of the cutter stylus and I'm interested in sharpening my own stylus.
There is a lot of information out there about faceting rocks and gems but I haven't found much info on faceting diamonds.
- meltingpotsound
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- Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:59 am
- Location: New York City
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Re: Is stereo embossing possible?
No Way, Ive already tried it with my Westrex 3D cutter head using a hot stylus I fabricate and facet especially for embossing on polycarbonate discs. It always comes back in mono. http://www.lathe-cut-records.com
- meltingpotsound
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Re: Is stereo embossing possible?
I will NEVER DISCLOSE that info !2bitcomputer wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2017 5:06 pm@marchingband
I am interested in the fact that you were doing faceting -
Would you mind sharing what kind and size of lap you used and at what RPM?
And what material were you faceting?
Thanks...