Lazarus Lathe Project

[Flexinoodle]

What exactly are the terms you guys are using on Ebay to find stuff, i never find anything whatsoever ????

[Soulbear]

Hi Flexinoodle,

What exactly are the terms you guys are using on Ebay to find stuff, i never find anything whatsoever ????

Same as everyone else I suppose. I've just this minute finished a Bay search on your behalf, to see what's about. I found a Grampian Type"D" Laydown Cutterhead (Pricey £1700 ish), a Fairchild 541A Cutterhead (£460 Still a Lot too Much in My View), and not 1, but 2, Wilcox Gay Recordette Snrs Suitcase Recorders (Dirt Cheap at about £70) So I think you're wrong about there never being anything to buy. It's a numbers game, and you gotta keep at it, search 3 or 4 times a day if needs be, 'til you spot what you're looking for. I'm sure you'll Puke when I tell you that the Birmingham Sound Reproducers DR33C being Restored/Modified in this Project, cost me around a Princely £90 with delivery (£89 if we're being Pedantic). It's not so much the initial outlay, you have to "Factor-In" all the other bits and bobs too. I'm keeping a "Running Total" of my Expenditure, and including the purchase of my "Ugly Duckling" Cutterhead I think in total it'll end up with this Project costing me in the £450 Ball-Park, I intend to publish the exact numbers at the end of the Project, to give other Lathe Trolls a "Benchmark" to compare and contrast their own "Home Brew" projects against. Be aware also, that many of the "Turn Key" Pro Rigs will probably end up "Nudging" around a miniumum of $100K+++ The Sky is Literally the Limit. So I still think £450 represents great value, however, that's NOT Counting the Many Many Hours of Hard Work to bring it "Up-to-Snuff" I'm finding the Challenge of this Project quite Stimulating, so I don't think of it as a Chore. Ask yourself how much work can you do to make a working Set-Up, using "Older Technology" Are you looking to make it a Business? or is it simply a Hobby? There are many many routes to take, and choices to be made. I'm sure you'll land on something that suits your requirements eventually. Set your search parameters in the Bay settings, to look Worldwide too, and not just Locally or Nationally. I hope this Helps.
Regards Soulbear

[Soulbear]

Hi Flexinoodle,
As if to confirm my point about the frequency of searches, it's less than 24 Hours later, and the Fairchild 541A Cutterhead was sold about 2 Hours ago!! Regards Soulbear

[Soulbear]

Hi Trolls,
Just before I got "Side-Tracked" and responded to Flexinoodle's enquiry, I revealed I had made a breakthrough (Of Sorts!!) and resolved the "Weight Differential" issues, with my "Cutterhead/Counterbalance" Modification, by the Fitting of an Additional Extension Spring :-

BSR DR33C Restoration-63.jpg

Today I re-visited this Modification, primarily because I considered that it looked like too much of an afterthought, and had been "Thrown Together" I want this "Lazarus Lathe Project" to better represent the "Higher Standards" of workmanship to which I hold myself. I was reminded of that old addage of "Spoiling the Ship, for a Ha'porth (Half-Pennyworth) of Tar" from back in the days when the Royal Navy was made up of Sailing Ships. It was not neccessarily the supplying of "More Costly" items to achieve these aims, more how I had Executed the fitting of the modification in the first instance. I knew "I Could Do Better" and so I started over. This time rather than simply hooking the extension spring twixt the intersection of one of the "Uprights" and of the "Aluminium Tube" I made the "Angled Bracket" to which the Dashpot is attached a little longer. I then added an adjustable Stainless Steel 4mm threaded "Tensioner" for the Extension Spring, which is now a little Shorter, and a little "Softer":-

BSR DR33C Restoration-64.jpg

BSR DR33C Restoration-65.jpg

BSR DR33C Restoration-66.jpg

The conventional 4mm threaded Nut on the top of the Angle will be replaced with a 4mm Stainless Steel Thumbnut/Wheel which I feel will make this little modification look "Better Designed" and a lot more "Purposeful" rather than appearing to have been "Thrown Together" As an added bonus, as well as controlling the "Counterbalance" by the addition or removal of the 6mm x 40mm Stainless Steel Washer "Weights", I can also make additional adjustments via the 4mm threaded extension Spring "Tensioner" I now feel this is an all together much more satisfactory modification.
Regards Soulbear
Continued..........

[Flexinoodle]

Weird, i searched all the things you found and there is nthing, it must be going as soon as it is posted haha

[Soulbear]

Hi Flexinoodle,
Not at All, Not at All, The Grampian is still available, & 1 of the Wilcox Gay Recordettes, + there has been an Atom 7" Lathe, and an Hara 12" Lathe, from the same seller, for sale for months now. A MSS Lathe was re-listed 3 times with no bids, before eventually selling about 2 weeks ago for £150. I also came across a new posting for this "Universal" Cutterhead :-

Universal Cutterhead.jpg

I really think you're not trying hard enough. Alternatively, your computer may be suffering from a little "Technological" Myopia if you're not finding these items, Sell, Sell, Sell, Te He!
Regards Soulbear

[Soulbear]

Hi Trolls,

Today I re-visited this Modification, primarily because I considered that it looked like too much of an afterthought, and had been "Thrown Together" I want this "Lazarus Lathe Project" to better represent the "Higher Standards" of workmanship to which I hold myself.

BSR DR33C Restoration-67.jpg

With the addition of 2 (1x Deep + 1x Shallow) Thumbnuts, in my view, this "Counterbalance" modification, now looks better thought out. I think it's a great improvement to the aesthetics of the modification too. It has done absolutely nothing to change the functionality of the Spring Tensioner, but now looks propper "Finished" All I'm awaiting now, is the delivery of a Higher R.P.M. Gearmotor, which will hopefully "Do the Business" for Lead-In and Run-Out Grooves, then I'll be able to box things up, and test how everything on this DR33C Lazarus Lathe Project hangs together.
Regards Soulbear

[Soulbear]

Hi Trolls,

All I'm awaiting now, is the delivery of a Higher R.P.M. Gearmotor, which will hopefully "Do the Business" for Lead-In and Run-Out Grooves, then I'll be able to box things up, and test how everything on this DR33C Lazarus Lathe Project hangs together.

Not strictly true, in addition I'm awaiting the 0.360"Diameter Platter Motor Drive Capstan too. However, today my 240 R.P.M. Gearmotor arrived from China, I immediately got to work making it fit my mounting bracket, which meant changing the orientation of where the Rubber Mounts attach to the Gearbox. To do this, I had to remove the Gearbox Cover and Gears, Drill out 4 "Blind Holes" on the back of the Gearbox, and Tap these out for the 4mm Threads on the Anti-Vibration Mounts, rather than using the Pre-Tapped Holes on the Other side of the Gearbox :-

BSR DR33C Restoration-68.jpg

Following the Re-assembing of the Gearbox, I popped this New Gearmotor into the DR33C and hooked it back up. I then re-tested its Operation. The 50 R.P.M. Gearmotor I had fitted initially, gave me OK cutting speeds, but this was at the "Top-End" of the P.W.M. Speed Controller's Duty Cycle. There was not enough "In Reserve" to give me the "Higher R.P.M." I needed for the cutting of Lead-In and Run-Out Grooves. This I feel, is an "Essential Modification" due to the DR33C having the Smallest Leadscrew "Handwheel" with which to Cut Lead-Ins and Run-Outs, of any Lathe I've yet seen. The "Trade-Off" to get the Higher R.P.M. needed, meant that I'd lost a lot of the Lower R.P.M. Gearmotor's Torque, I was concerned that this would mean this Gearmotor may not have enough "Grunt" to Run the Leadscrew. I needn't have worried, as things turned out to be OK in that department too. "Rough and Ready" checks showed that a 10% Duty Cycle from the P.W.M. Speed Controller gave a very "Smooth" around 5 Minutes of "Cutting Time" when the Platter is Running at 45 R.P.M. And at a 20% Duty Cycle, around the 2 Minutes+ mark, I'm guessing that most of the future Cutting will be done somewhere between these 2 Duty Cycles. Shorting out the Control Potentiometer on the P.W.M. Speed Controller with a 1K Fixed Resistor kicks it up to around a 90-95% Duty Cycle, and now gives me the "Higher Speeds" needed for the Cutting of Lead-In and Run-Out Grooves, as can be seen in this short Video Clip, where hopefully, you'll also see that my Run-Out Groove Cut-Off Micro-Switch Modification, works like a Charm too :-

Lazarus Lathe Run-Out Test.3gp

Apologies for the dire quality of my Video's I do have a more Up-to-Date Camera-Phone with a much "Higher Resolution" Camera, if only I could remember how to use the thing!! In the coming few weeks I hope to conduct additional tests with different value Fixed Resistors, with which to "Short-Out" the P.W.M Controller's Potentiometer, and further "Refine" this High Speed Running. It's not beyond the "Realms of Possibility" to add a Further "Momentary" Push Button to short out the Controller's Potentiometer, with another value of Fixed Resistor, to give Separate Speeds for Lead-In and Run-Out Grooves, MMMMM!Te He!
Regards Soulbear
Continued............

[Flexinoodle]

Perhaps you cpould just post the links then, becuse i used a copy and paste of the exact names you gave, and found nothing on ebay.co.uk, so yes, please, post the links

[Soulbear]

Hi Flexinoodle,
P.M. sent with 9x Ebay Links for your perusal, hope this helps.
Regards Soulbear

[Soulbear]

Hi Trolls,
The Initial Tests of shorting out the P.W.M. Controller's Potentiometer with a "Momentary Push Button" and 1K fixed Resistor have shown conclusively that this 1K value is a little too low :-

Lazarus Lathe Leadscrew Test.3gp

As can be seen in the short Video Clip, the Leadscrew is going into "Hyper-Drive" when the Momentary Push Button is pressed, with only this 1K Resistor in the "Potentiometer Bypass" Circuit. The 1K Resitor causes the P.W.M. Controller's Duty Cycle to jump up into the 90%++ Region, with the "Cutting Speed Control" Potentiometer Setting the P.W.M. Controller in the 10 - 20% Duty Cycle Range. I've tried 5K, 10K, 20K, and 30K Fixed Resistors and think I will Settle with the 10K for now, which Kicks the Duty Cycle Up to around 60%. It's just a pity that the DR33C's Deckplate is too thick to Mount a "Single Turn" Potentiometer to, for then I would have the "Luxury" of having a "Variable" means to adjust these Leadscrew Speed Increases, when pressing the Momentary Push Button, for Lead-In & Run-Out Groove Cutting. It's a shame, but it is what it is.
Regards Soulbear
Continued...........

[Soulbear]

Hi Trolls,
I've spent a day or so, Testing and Re-testing the Cutting Times of this DR33C's Leadscrew. I did a little bit of my own research, by measuring with my Calipers (Sadly not having the benefit of a "Digital" Read-Out) the Distance of the Area "Cut" (Or more accurately Pressed) on a 45 R.P.M. Gramophone Record. I chose 10x 45 R.P.M. Gramophone Records at Random, from my quite Largish Collection, and then "Measured" the distance of the Area that carried the Recording. As close as Damn is to Swearing, I got an "Average" of 1.2". Starting from an "Outside Radius" of 3.25" from the centre of the "Spindle Hole" to a "Inner Radius" of around 2.05" a "Total Distance of 1.2" I've compiled the results of my "Cutting Speed Tests" in a little "Cutting Table" :-

Lazarus Lathe Cutting Timing Chart2.pdf

In "Hindsight" I dare suppose I could have "Looked Up" the R.I.A.A. Dimensional Standards for 45's that I've previously mentioned, but Now I'm in my Dotage, I find the "Heuristic Technique" to learning "New Stuff" works best for me. Using my aforementioned Calipers, I set the Cutterhead carriage at 1.2" away from my Modification of the "Micro-Switch Cut-Off Point" I engaged the "Cutterhead Lever" on the Carriage, and then measured the time taken to activate the "Cut-Off" I repeated each "Speed Test" 3 times and took the average (In truth there was very little variation) At 10% Duty Cycle from the P.W.M. Speed Controller, it took 5Min 40secs to cover this 1.2" If I've got my sums correct, "Shaving" 20% off this Time gives me 4Min 32Secs (Or 4.53Mins) as the time taken to cover 1" of "Cutting" If I now take this 4.53Mins and Multiply by 45(R.P.M.) I get a 203.8 or 204 L.P.I. Similary "Shaving" 20% off the the 25% Duty Cycle Time of 1Min47Secs gives me a time of 1Min25.6Secs or 1.43Mins to cover this same 1" of Cutting "Area" thereby ending up with a 1.43Mins x 45(R.P.M.) = 64.3L.P.I. Would any Trolls care to tell me, 1) Have I got my sums correctly worked out?? and 2) How does this "Range" of 204 to 64 L.P.I. compare and contrast with the abilities of the Presto's and Rek-O-Kuts "Desk Top" Cutters of this World. Is this a "Decent" enough "Ball-Park Range"?? It seems to be OK from my ViewPoint, but then again, what do I know?? Little by Little and Bit by Bit, at last I think the Penny has Dropped with me, and I now think I'm slowly getting my head around this Disc Cutting Game. I'm assuming that it also follows that the "Lowest" 64 L.P.I. allows the most room for the "Higher Levels" or "Louder" Cutting, and conversely, when cutting at the "Highest" 204 L.P.I. the "Audio Signal" has to be Attenuated Somewhat, leading to "Quieter"Grooves (Silly Silly Me, I've been inordinately "Dim" I don't know what I was thinking, I thought the opposite was true!!) Te He!
Regards Soulbear
Continued...........

[Soulbear]

Hi Trolls,
Just for those Trolls who are maybe Looking for "Dual Speeds" on their Lathes Leadscrews, so as to be able to Cut Lead-Ins & Run-Outs. As previously described, here is an Ultra Simple and Inexpensive way to to acheive this :-

BSR DR33C Restoration-39.jpg

The "Furthest Away" Momentary Push Button turns the PWM Controller & Digital Duty Cycle Display On or Off. The "Cutting Speed is Set with a 100K Potentiometer (Out of Shot). Lead-Ins & Run-Outs are made by Depressing the Push Button closest to the Controller/Display to Run the Leadscrew at Higher Speed :-

24 Volt Lathe Leadscrew P.W.M. Speed Control Circuit2.jpg

It's had the Thick End of a Full Week of Testing and Re-Testing - and Works Like a Charm. Though it could moreover, have been further improved somewhat, by using a Second Potentiometer, in place of the 10K fixed Resistor so that the Speeds for the Lead-In & Run-Out Grooves could be additionally adjusted and set "On the Fly". I just struggled to obtain a Potentiometer with a "Long Enough" Thread, to be able to mount it on the Lathes Deck Plate. Every day a Little "Closer" to the Finish Line Te He!! Now to get Chasiing Up my Platter Motor 45 R.P.M. Drive-Capstan for this DR33C.
Regards Soulbear
Continued...........

[Soulbear]

Hi Trolls,
The past few days or so, have seen me "Scratching My Head" trying to to figure out, Where in the World, I could attach a Vacuum Pipe onto this DR33C. Seemingly, all of the Suitable Piping Routes, would somehow interfere with the Operation of the Cutterhead or Carriage or Both. Having come so far with this Restoration, for the want of Fitting a Vacuum Swarf Pick-UP, it was looking increasingly likely that I wouldn't be able to "Cut" Polycarbonate Blanks. I've read elsewhere on the Forum, that the Swarf or Chip from these Polycarbonate Type of Discs, behaves "Differently" to the Swarf from a Laquer. In the "Days of Yor" when the only Medium available to Cut On, was either Wax or Laquer, this issue didn't seem to exist. As I've mentioned elsewhere on the Forum, a lot of "Older Lathes" used a "Soft Bristled Brush" for Swarf Collection Duties, and indeed, this BSR DR33C is No Exception, as it too, is equiped with a Brush. I can't tell a lie and say that I've been Filled with Confidence, about the Ability of this Brush that's fitted to the DR33C, to deal with Polycarbonate Swarf. Other Lathe Trolls might just Step In at this Point, and tell me my Doubts about using a Brush for this Type of Swarf, are Totally Unfounded, and such a method is A OK, but I ain't holding my Breath 'til I get such a response. I didn't want to be left with a Lathe that could only "Emboss" rather than Cut Records either, though I'm pretty sure that Advocates of the Former Technique, will no doubt say I'm "Talking out of my Arse" and tell me that they Acheive "Stellar" Results using this "Embossing Technique" when making Records. It may be the case that this "Embossing" is all that can be done with the DR33C, and that I may well Suprise Myself with the "Fidelity" of such Recordings. I hope that never happens however, because I eventually managed to "Route" a Vacuum Pipe, which I'm hoping will allow me to "Cut" rather than Emboss. :-

BSR DR33C Restoration-69.jpg

BSR DR33C Restoration-73.jpg

BSR DR33C Restoration-72.jpg

BSR DR33C Restoration-74.jpg

Regards Soulbear
Continued.............

[Soulbear]

Hi Trolls,

BSR DR33C Restoration-70.jpg

As can be seen here and in the previous Photographs, in order to be able to fit a Vacuum Pipe at all, and in order for me to be able to fit it in the available space, I had to use Smallish 3mm O.D. Pipe. I've tried to ensure that the Radius of the Bends in the Pipe are as"Gentle" and as "Large" as I could make them given the Confines of Space. As can also be seen in the above Photo, I used a "Spacer" underneath the little Custom "Pipe Bracket" to ensure I gave the Pipe Bend, as Large a Radius as Possible, whilst ensuring the Pipe is well supported. Short of Completely removing the Overhead again, in order to complete the Vacuum Pipe installation, the Lower Pipe Bracket or Clamp, makes use of, and utillises the Cutterhead Frame's "Pivot Point" Adjusting Screw and Nut.

BSR DR33C Restoration-71.jpg

To attach the Latex Hose which will connect with the "Swarf Jar" necessitated the fitting of 2 Sections of Pipe "Sleeves" 1 x 3mm I.D. x 4mm O.D. and then a 4mm I.D x 5mm O.D. Pipe. These Sleeve Sections are simply glued together using Loctite 480 (The Black Stuff) and in addition, then Covered in "Jacket" of Clear Polyolefin Heatshrikable Tubing, which I hope will ensure a Good Seal, in the event of any Gaps within the Loctited Joints. Such is the "Small Tolerances" and "Minimum Clearances" involved in the making and fitting of this "Small but Vital" Pipe Component, that it has taken me 4 Attempts over 4 Days, before I was happy with the "Final Fit".This Trolls, I'm again sad to report, has resulted in a few utterances from me, in the 95%++ Region of the "F" Scale Te He. I only hope It dosen't "Clog" the first time I try and use it!!!!
Regards Soulbear

[Soulbear]

Hi Trolls,
Yippee, at last I've got me some Drive, my good friend Chris has at last found the time in his busy busy schedule, to convert my rough old paper sketch into a Metal Platter Drive Capstan:-

BSR Motor Capstan4.jpg

By using his Magical Metal Transformation Device (Metal Turning Lathe Te He!!) I got me this essential component, for to Transmit Power from the DR33C's 70 Year Old Motor into the Platter :-

BSR DR33C Restoration-75.jpg

Now the DR33c's Original Drivebelt is of the Heavy Cotton/Denim/Canvas Type which required the fitting of a Spring-Loaded Tensioner to maintain enough pressure on the Original 78 RPM Capstan for the Transmission of Drive. Reducing the Drive Capstan's diameter from a 78 RPM Drive to 45 RPM Drive, was sufficient to render this Original Drivebelt unuseable, as there is not enough adjustment on the Spring-loaded Tensioner to compensate for the reduced Capstan Diameter. Thanks to a Tip-Off from Fellow Lathe Troll Aaron (Thanks Aaron), I was lucky to find a UK Supplier of Humungous Rubber Drive Belts :-

BSR DR33C Drivebelt.jpg

This "Bad Boy" is 988mm in length, and just happens to be the "Perfect" size to drive this Lazarus Lathe Project, it has Sufficient Elasticity to drive the Platter without needing the previously mentioned Spring-Loaded Tensioner to be re-fitted to the Lathe. As can be seen here, the Lazarus Lathe's Platter has this very day, had it's first Run, in what I speculate to be at least 40 Years!!

Lazarus Lathe Drive Capstan Test.3gp

Regards Soulbear
Continued...........

[SueDenim]

Could you let us know who Aaron suggested to supply your drive belt please?
I may need something very similar soon!

Thanks.

[Soulbear]

Hi There SueDenim,
It's a clicks not bricks ebay shop only, and goes under the name of Malvern Hills Audio maintained by dappletoft. It comes up with that Drive Belt Picture from My last posting (Shown on a Sky Blue Coloured Background) on the very firsy page of (2700) results if you Type "Turntable Drive Belts" into the ebay "Search" Bar. Hope this Helps Regards Soulbear

[SueDenim]

Nice one!
Thanks SB

[jesusfwrl]

Hi Soulbear,
Good work!

It is not the type of blank you will be cutting that defines your suction needs. It is mostly a question of whether you will be using a heated stylus or not.

A cold stylus will cut into anything and the chip will more often than not just tend to curl up around the centre spindle. This curling can be aided with the soft brush and you can just collect and discard appropriately at the end of your cutting session.

The problems tend to start when you use a hot stylus, since the chip tends to get sticky. Lacquer, polycarbonate and PVC would all just stick to the stylus and ball up there creating a huge mess, if you would not use suction at all. To further inflame matters, lacquer would most likely eventually catch fire and then you would have more burning issues to deal with... It wouldn't make the sound any warmer either!

PVC and polycarbonate would most likely not catch fire, but maybe you would wish they would when you see what they will do to your expensive diamond stylus.

Suction is an absolute requirement with a hot stylus, but it is not much of a requirement with a cold stylus. However, cuts made with a cold stylus are pretty noisy by current standards. I personally choose the hot stylus option and struggle with the suction.

Furthermore, lacquer gets picked up fairly easily while polycarbonate and PVC like to cling on anything they can cling to, including the surface of the disk, the bottom of the cutterhead, the suction tube itself, the walls of the chip jar, your hand, your cat...

There are rumours that one of the people experiencing sticky plastic chip went on to develop the mp3 out of sheer frustration...

So, you will need a much stronger suction for polycarbonate and PVC, compared to lacquer. But, there is no problem with using more suction than necessary for lacquer, I use the same for everything. If the suction system is designed and installed properly there is no noise induced through it. You don't need to be too extreme with sealing things. The loctite alone would have worked just fine. The 3mm OD pipe is more of a worry. Its a bit too small. The smallest I have needed to use was 4mm OD, 3mm ID, and this was on a stereo head going right under the torque tube to end up behind the stylus. On mono heads, I can almost always use 1/4" or 6mm OD pipe. One trick is to flatten the end a bit to make it fit better, while still maintaining the same cross section. Keep the pipe diameter as large as possible for as long as possible, and only make it small for the part where it goes under the head. Especially on PVC and polycarbonate blanks the surface of the blank also needs to be made slightly conductive ( antistatic treatment) and the suction tube must be placed 1mm or less from the blank surface and as close as 2-3mm from the stylus. If you are still having trouble getting the chip picked up, then you need stronger suction.