Getting Started with 78s (and hand cranked players)

[antimattr]

Hi all

First off, I love that this community exists.

I have some hand-cranked phonograph machines and a collection of records although naturally many of these old records are Foxtrot and others from the late 1800s and early 1900s. I would love to be able to cut some newer songs onto discs for use with these old machines just for the fun of it.

What is the most effective hardware/setup for me (I am guessing Wilcox Gay?) and where can I find it?

Considering the machines I will be dealing with, going hifi would be a complete and total waste of time and money. I am in the world of mechanical reproducers, wood horns are steel needles.

Thanks!

[Steve E.]

This question was my whole personal reason I set up this site. I am going to bed so I shall wait. Prod me if I don't answer fully right away.

BUT....short, incomplete answer:

As people will tell you, the conventional material used for cutting records is very soft.

Handcranked record players have tonearms that are very heavy. They were designed for playing pre-vinyl, hard shellac records.

They will wear out acetates VERY quickly. (I have a portable Victrola that will destroy them in 6 plays. My HMV101-style portables are slightly kinder.)

So! You need a few things:

1) Commercially-ground cactus needles for playback. They are the only thing I have found that can play homemade records decently. Steel needles will stop acetate in its tracks.

2) Preferably, something other than acetate --harder-- as a recording medium. I'll let others chime in on this.

3) a stylus that can cut wide grooves. (33 rpm is microgroove).

more to come....

[Steve E.]

Read these linked threads:

Cutting lacquers for a Victrola, playing them back.

Cutting Needle for Wilcox Gay Sr

78 cutting styli???

and ask away.

[Steve E.]

Also....

You asked what hardware to use. I might recommend what I started with, which is a Wilcox Gay Recordio, which was designed for home users to record parties and shows off the radio. Another company with machines in a similar vein is Rek-o-Kut. If you get one of these, you should expect to need to put time and/or money into getting it working. These machines are 60+ years old and the capacitors will have failed. West-Tech sells restored machines, and will also fix any machines you buy off ebay or at flea markets (though it's a pain to send them out.)

However, know that these machines will only give you fidelity up to a certain point. I know you are not going for the hi-fi, but be aware that there are other vintage machines that will nonetheless produce records that will sound louder better on your vintage machines. They will be larger, take more time and money to master. The Presto 6N is a classic, and pretty easy to repair.

Check the classifieds here. People sell all kindsa stuff.

If you cut on a material harder than acetate, you will need to do a lot of experimenting. The material will need to be warmed up in one way or another so as not to trash your cutting needles right away. He says, having lost more than one expensive cutting needle by using a hard material. One of the threads above may describe a way to heat up your cutting needle (but be aware that in a crystal cutterhead like a Recordio, this is not advised). Others have recommended heat lamps. I have not really tried this.

[markrob]

Hi,

Along with what Steve has indicated, I would suggest that the best bet would be to cut using standard lacquer blanks and then make silicone molds so that you can cast high durability records using materials from companies like Smooth-On. Here is link to the web site with some info on doing this.

http://www.smooth-on.com/gallery.php?galleryid=157

I've done some experimenting with this method for microgroove 45's and I think it would work well for 78's on hand cranked machines.

Here is the cut lacquer trimmed and placed into a form ready for making the mould:

Lacquer Disc Ready for Pour.JPG

The form with the Smooth-On silcone mould material poured.

Silicone Poured.JPG

The finished mould:

Finished Mould.JPG

The finished resin disc, clamped inside the jig I made to flush trim to size using a router with a piloted flush trim bit. The pilot bearing rides on the outside of the wooden jig, and the bit trims to size.

Flush Trim.JPG

A finished record using Smooth-On casting resin (after trimming):

Finished Record.JPG

Hope this gives you some ideas for experimentation.

Mark

******

[Steve E.]

ooo wow.

There are threads on this around here, but seeing this version blows my mind.

[antimattr]

Thanks for all the info!

I am reading up on stuff and will certainly have more questions as I get my plans together.

One immediate question I have though is where can I find the commercially ground cactus needles?

[Steve E.]

Thanks for all the info!

I am reading up on stuff and will certainly have more questions as I get my plans together.

One immediate question I have though is where can I find the commercially ground cactus needles?

You can find old "new stock" from the 1940's on ebay. that's where I got mine.

[antimattr]

Mark,

That is very impressive! Do the final casts play with regular steel needles? What ends up being the rough average cost per record?

You can find old "new stock" from the 1940's on ebay. that's where I got mine.

Would something like this http://tenwatts.blogspot.com/2008/01/bamboo-phonograph-needles.html (assuming I could find one!) work? Are the cactus needles good for more than one use or do they need to be tossed after play like the steel needles?

Thanks!

[markrob]

Hi,

I've only been usign this process for microgroove 45's, so I can't speak to the life using a hand cranker. However, the casting resing is pretty tough, so I expect it would work about as long as a vinyl record would. The old shellac records had an abrasive mixed in that would sacrifice the needle rather than the record (that's why you have to change after every play). I suspect that the life of the resin based record would not last as long as shellac, but would be quieter. One advantage with this method is that once you have the silicone mould, you can cast more if the record wears out. I guess you would have to try this process and see how it goes.

The advantage is that you don't need a diamond stylus to cut a lacquer blank. Steel or saphire will work just fine.

As far as cost, it depends on how many records you make. The materials used do have a shelf life, so you can get stuck with extra outdated stuff. If you check on the web site for smooth-on, you should be able to estimate the cost per record. IIRC, a 45 used about $1 of resin. The silicone material adds additonal expense.

Hope this helps.

Mark

[antimattr]

I've only been usign this process for microgroove 45's, so I can't speak to the life using a hand cranker. However, the casting resing is pretty tough, so I expect it would work about as long as a vinyl record would. The old shellac records had an abrasive mixed in that would sacrifice the needle rather than the record (that's why you have to change after every play). I suspect that the life of the resin based record would not last as long as shellac, but would be quieter. One advantage with this method is that once you have the silicone mould, you can cast more if the record wears out. I guess you would have to try this process and see how it goes.

The advantage is that you don't need a diamond stylus to cut a lacquer blank. Steel or saphire will work just fine.

Looking at the website for the product it seems to imply that it can be used as other 'real' 78s are. If so, that would be outstanding.

As far as cost, it depends on how many records you make. The materials used do have a shelf life, so you can get stuck with extra outdated stuff. If you check on the web site for smooth-on, you should be able to estimate the cost per record. IIRC, a 45 used about $1 of resin. The silicone material adds additonal expense.

Even better. I was looking at the products page and was a bit nervous about the final cost but this is really good news.

The next question is, what type of disc did you use to make the template for your silicon mold? Assuming that deep grooves for the final disc would be ideal and there is no longer the need to worry about the record even being played on the 'first round' material it seems like it can be something soft. Would a regular lacquer disc work or is there something else you would recommend?

Hope this helps.

You've all been quite helpful, thank you!

[markrob]

Hi,

I cut a standard lacquer 10" blank. I used a jig I made to trim it down a bit oversize to the standard 6 7/8" diameter of a 45. That gave me some extra meat to trim away after casting. I used a router fitted with a flush trim bit to cut the aluminum blank down to size.

You would need to cut the lacquer blank with the proper groove geometry for a 78. I'm pretty sure they are coated thick enough to allow this. Maybe somebody else here can comment on this point. The typical 78 cutting stylus had a larger raduis tip, but as long as you cut the groove wide enough (this implies deep enough), you can use a stylus with a microgroove tip. You would also use a course feed (90-100 lpi) to meet the 78 standard.

Make sure you check for yourself about the total price to mould and cast the record. You should be able to estimate the cubic volume of material needed for a record.

Finally, Smooth-on offers a family of resin materials that tradoff cost, hardness, cure time, and viscosity. Give them a call and have talk with a product specialist. There great to deal with. Since you are not concered with mass production, I'd choose a low viscosity/long cure time resin so that it allows for degassing without a vac pump. I used a Welch vac pump for my experiments, but I wanted fast cure times so that more copies could be made. The casting material is a two part system. I had the best results degassing each of the two parts before mixing. Then I avoided stirring too rapidly to avoid bubbles. With the fast cure time versions, you have to work fast. If you are just making one, you can afford to wait several hours for curing.

Mark