Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

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Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby tragwag » Mon May 06, 2013 2:41 pm

anyone have the schematic or manual to this unit?
(the same as in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faCtQCZMjKk)

I just picked one up the other day and I'm looking to do some work on it.
Post or PM the schematic,
Thanks!
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby markrob » Mon May 06, 2013 5:18 pm

Hi Tyler,

I just checked my Riders CD-ROM. Its covered (Volume 16 Page: Meissner 16-1). Check your email I sent you a zip files with PDF printouts.

Mark
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby tragwag » Mon May 06, 2013 6:06 pm

thanks mark!
Riders is a great resource, I just found their online archives.
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby djmeverett » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:26 am

Hi there Mark & Tyler, I have a Meissner 9-1065 that my Dad had and was used as a recorder back in the mid 40's (as I'm sure you know). Years ago my Dad had told me about a recording shop/studio he and his friends had where people would come in off the street for voice recordings during WWII for families to mail off to their sons overseas. They would also have singers and bands who would come in and record on this machine!
I even found a photo of that recording shop in an old photo album of his after his passing this March. He was 89. So by my rough calculations he must have been in his early 20's back then.

It needs a new power cord and switch and probably needles and tubes and some new capacitors, but it looks like everything is still intact and all there. Just some repair and restoration needed which for me should be doable. I'm even willing to have someone restore parts that may be beyond my capabilities.
I was wondering if you still have the schematic or service manual for this or really any info about this unit I could use to help me get it working and restored.
I also have some records that were cut with this and I would love to hear them. I believe my Grandmother is on one of the disc's that my Dad had done while he was testing it at home with her!
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby markrob » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:58 am

Hi,

If you PM me with your email address, I send you a copy of the Riders info.

Mark
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby djmeverett » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:44 pm

markrob wrote:Hi,

If you PM me with your email address, I send you a copy of the Riders info.

Mark


Thanks Mark for the info
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby djmeverett » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:40 pm

Well I'm hoping someone can help me with some issues and wire replacements, restoration questions I'm doing on this unit and some schematic and tube circuit interpretation.

Once I got this thing opened up and separated into it's main components (turntable, speaker, antenna, tube chassis), I started to document the tube chassis, pins, caps, resistors and controls etc.
While checking with the schematic as I went I found a couple things not referenced on there.

There is a "tone" control pot (25K) which is mounted under and part of the main power switch. I believe it's supposed to add or adjust some brightness during recording...not sure if it also works for everything else like the radio or phono playback?

The pot itself only uses two poles (center wiper and one end, other end is NC).
One end goes to a .05uf/400 cap to ground. The wiper of the pot appears to be a shielded green wire that goes to the 6V6GT tube pin 3. That pin 3 (plate) also goes to the audio output transformer input tap and a .01uf/1000V cap to ground.

I'm hoping a tube circuit guru or Meissner 9-1065 expert could tell me if that is the correct hookup of that tone pot and how that works in terms of brightness control. Most tone control I've seen are done at the preamp stage and this seems to be connecting at the output plate stage of the 6V6GT power tube???....so I'm looking for help with that!

The second item I can't seem to figure out on the schematic and appears to be an additional circuit (maybe not) is a .01uf/400V cap, 470K, 100k resistors connected together at pin 6 of the 6V6GT. Now per the tube datasheet pin 6 of the 6V6GT is a N.C. pin.
I suspect they used that pin as a common tie point?
So....the other end of the .01/400V cap goes to ground, the other end of the 470k resistor goes to the + side of the 15uf/450V 2nd filter cap (B+) and the 100k goes to pin 5 of the 6SC7 tube.
Well...on one schematic I have it shows pin 5 of the 6SC7 with a tie to pin 2 and on another schematic I have there is no connection tie at pin 5 to pin 2 at all?
So again some confusion there as to where and what that's doing in the circuit and if that is correct? I have attached both schematics (pin 5 NC) and (pin 5 connected to pin 2) of the 6SC7.

One final bit of confusion and knowledge I need is on the two 6J7 tubes in the schematic each have a grid pin shown as a square off the tube socket (it's G1 grid). Is that actually pin 6 on the socket itslef and any idea why the Meissner schematic would show it between pins 3 & 4. The RCA tube data sheet shows that G1 tab between pins 5 & 7. Just need some verification on that....

I would really appreciate any help especially from any tube circuit people who are familiar with this kind of stuff....
Attachments
Meissner with pin 5 connection 001.jpg
Meissner no pin5 connection 001.jpg
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby markrob » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:25 pm

djmeverett wrote:Well I'm hoping someone can help me with some issues and wire replacements, restoration questions I'm doing on this unit and some schematic and tube circuit interpretation.

Once I got this thing opened up and separated into it's main components (turntable, speaker, antenna, tube chassis), I started to document the tube chassis, pins, caps, resistors and controls etc.
While checking with the schematic as I went I found a couple things not referenced on there.

There is a "tone" control pot (25K) which is mounted under and part of the main power switch. I believe it's supposed to add or adjust some brightness during recording...not sure if it also works for everything else like the radio or phono playback?

The pot itself only uses two poles (center wiper and one end, other end is NC).
One end goes to a .05uf/400 cap to ground. The wiper of the pot appears to be a shielded green wire that goes to the 6V6GT tube pin 3. That pin 3 (plate) also goes to the audio output transformer input tap and a .01uf/1000V cap to ground.

I'm hoping a tube circuit guru or Meissner 9-1065 expert could tell me if that is the correct hookup of that tone pot and how that works in terms of brightness control. Most tone control I've seen are done at the preamp stage and this seems to be connecting at the output plate stage of the 6V6GT power tube???....so I'm looking for help with that!

The second item I can't seem to figure out on the schematic and appears to be an additional circuit (maybe not) is a .01uf/400V cap, 470K, 100k resistors connected together at pin 6 of the 6V6GT. Now per the tube datasheet pin 6 of the 6V6GT is a N.C. pin.
I suspect they used that pin as a common tie point?
So....the other end of the .01/400V cap goes to ground, the other end of the 470k resistor goes to the + side of the 15uf/450V 2nd filter cap (B+) and the 100k goes to pin 5 of the 6SC7 tube.
Well...on one schematic I have it shows pin 5 of the 6SC7 with a tie to pin 2 and on another schematic I have there is no connection tie at pin 5 to pin 2 at all?
So again some confusion there as to where and what that's doing in the circuit and if that is correct? I have attached both schematics (pin 5 NC) and (pin 5 connected to pin 2) of the 6SC7.

One final bit of confusion and knowledge I need is on the two 6J7 tubes in the schematic each have a grid pin shown as a square off the tube socket (it's G1 grid). Is that actually pin 6 on the socket itslef and any idea why the Meissner schematic would show it between pins 3 & 4. The RCA tube data sheet shows that G1 tab between pins 5 & 7. Just need some verification on that....

I would really appreciate any help especially from any tube circuit people who are familiar with this kind of stuff....


Do you think the pot was added later? I see the schematic has a .01uf from the 6V6 plate to ground. I suspect that somebody decided to make the roll-off adjustable and added the pot (configured as a variable resistor, hence the use of only two terminals). This works as a simple crude tone control since the cap will shunt high frequencies to ground. The cap works in conjunction with the plate resistance and the reflected impedance of the output transformer to form a low pass filter. Adding the resistor, allows you to dial more or less as needed.

Manufacturers often used NC pins a tie points. I'm sure this is the case here. You should be able to find the parts in question on the schematic.

The 6J7 has an signal grid connection via top cap. You should see a press on connector with a wire going to the top of the tube. This is denoted by the square on the schematic.

Hope this helps.

Mark
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby djmeverett » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:56 pm

Thanks for getting back to me on this Mark....
It has to be original because it's a feature and part of that main power switch.
My confusion was I mis-labeled where the wiper lead went to and was trying to figure out if that was the correct location Pin 3 of the 6V6GT. That .01uf/1000V to ground is in there as well.
The .05uf/400V is not listed in the parts list and is in addition to that .01uf/1000V cap?

On the 6J7 grid pin thing I actually have 6SJ7GT tubes which are glass and have no top lead.
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby djmeverett » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:31 am

Mark....you know on that 6J7 tube which is what is listed in the schematic, that has a completely different pin layout than what's in there which are 6SJ7GT's!!
The schematic diagram shows a 6J7 and wiring.
When I look at the data sheets for the 6J7 the Cathode (K) is shown on Pin 8 and that G1 pin is on the cap of the metal MT* case, so I double checked the markings and these are Sylvania 6SJ7GT and the Plate (P) is listed as Pin 8!
They are all completely backwards...
None of the pins actually match a 6J7
I'm really confused now and wonder if someone put the wrong tubes in.
I'm not sure what to do now!
Do I rewire?...or try and find some 6J7 or 6J7GT's?
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby markrob » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:34 am

djmeverett wrote:Mark....you know on that 6J7 tube which is what is listed in the schematic, that has a completely different pin layout than what's in there which are 6SJ7GT's!!
The schematic diagram shows a 6J7 and wiring.
When I look at the data sheets for the 6J7 the Cathode (K) is shown on Pin 8 and that G1 pin is on the cap of the metal MT* case, so I double checked the markings and these are Sylvania 6SJ7GT and the Plate (P) is listed as Pin 8!
They are all completely backwards...
None of the pins actually match a 6J7
I'm really confused now and wonder if someone put the wrong tubes in.
I'm not sure what to do now!
Do I rewire?...or try and find some 6J7 or 6J7GT's?


Hi,

I think this is just a case of your unit being a newer revision. I would just ignore the older Riders schematic other than to get a general idea of how the unit works. In reality, you really don't need the schematic to restore this unit. The general idea is to replace all paper caps with modern film versions. Replace all electrolytic caps as well. Power up and see if you can get the radio portion working. Replace tubes and other parts as needed (don't rely on a tube tester). Getting the radio working is a good thing because this uses all of the circuity (the record and playback functions just re-arrange some of the circuit blocks).

Mark
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby djmeverett » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:22 pm

markrob wrote:Hi,
I think this is just a case of your unit being a newer revision. I would just ignore the older Riders schematic other than to get a general idea of how the unit works. In reality, you really don't need the schematic to restore this unit. The general idea is to replace all paper caps with modern film versions. Replace all electrolytic caps as well. Power up and see if you can get the radio portion working. Replace tubes and other parts as needed (don't rely on a tube tester). Getting the radio working is a good thing because this uses all of the circuity (the record and playback functions just re-arrange some of the circuit blocks).

Mark

Thanks Mark....Yes, I'll do that. I think the cutter and playback cartridges will be my biggest challenge actually. I usually don't have any problems getting things like this to work. Replacing caps to me is the easy part...doing the research, finding components, chatting online like this is all part of interest and important to me too. I've realized that for me it's the combination of all these that makes it an enjoyable hobby!
I probably spend an inordinate amount of time looking through old tube manuals, datasheets and circuits on the computer. So it's a crossroads of old and new and all part of the fun! I think some of this is just chatting on the forum and confirmation of knowledge and feedback from people like you! :D

I've gone thru all the other tubes and all matched up correctly. I tend to check and test everything.
With the exception of that tone control missing in the schematic and this tube swap everything is good so far.
The (2) 6J7's on the chassis are wired for 6J7 tubes, so I suspect someone may have thought those 6SJ7GT's were a direct replacement in error. They probably heated up but having the plate and cathode reversed and the wrong grids connected was probably it's demise to the attic. There were other different tubes in this, but they were all OK subs. But it's always good to check before firing up.
So just a few more checks and I should now be able to get it working with the 6SJ7GT's.
Electrically they are the same type of tube. A little better in fact. If they need to be rewired that is also easy to do, but I'm doing things one step at a time and taking my time....
Thanks again for your comments, I really appreciate it...I'll let you know how it goes and probably more questions...

On a sidenote, do you have a working Meissner 9-1065?
And if so, did you have the cutter and phono cartridges rebuilt?
I'm doing a little research on those and looking to replace those if they are in fact toast.
Possibly with something newer. I should be able to get a more modern ceramic cartridge for the phono tonearm. Not sure yet on the cutter....any thoughts or recommendations?
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby markrob » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:56 pm

Hi,

I've never owned one of these, but I have a good deal of experience restoring old radios. You can probably bank on the cutter head and pickup being dead. They used Rochelle salt crystal elements. These typically don't age well. Getting the head rebuilt seems to be an issue these days. Gib at West-Tech is looking to retire soon.

http://www.west-techservices.com/p2.htm


Do a search here and you'll see. Good luck with the restoration.

Mark
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby djmeverett » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:07 pm

markrob wrote:Hi,

I've never owned one of these, but I have a good deal of experience restoring old radios. You can probably bank on the cutter head and pickup being dead. They used Rochelle salt crystal elements. These typically don't age well. Getting the head rebuilt seems to be an issue these days. Gib at West-Tech is looking to retire soon.

http://www.west-techservices.com/p2.htm


Do a search here and you'll see. Good luck with the restoration.

Mark


Thanks, I have looked over the West-Tech site and will decide later when I get to that point.
I see many experts with some of this unique vintage equipment like Gil retiring. Unfortunately we may lose a lot of that knowledge...
I did find another option online to replace crystals with a simple piezo element. Another option would be to replace them with something more modern. But that is down the road for right now!
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby djmeverett » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:00 pm

I've been doing some research on the phono playback cartridge which is a mono Astatic L-40A crystal cartridge.
The spec parameters are:
Mono Output @ 1khz 0.6V/0.5mA
Min. needle pressure: 1.25oz
Frequency Response: 50hz-4.5khz (that's pretty bad)?!

I found a ceramic cartridge here:
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/PFANSTIEHL-P-51-1-/39-920

It looks like it will attach to the tonearm correctly with the same 2 hole mount
It's specs are:
Output: Mono
Output Voltage: 0.5v
Tracking Force: 8g

Wondering if anyone has an opinion if this would be a good replacement?
I think I could adjust the input tube circuitry if needed and maybe some tonearm weight adjustment would be needed. It also states it will play all speeds...
Thanks for any comment
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby markrob » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:46 am

Hi,

The replacement should be fine. You might have to adjust the weight to keep from killing the pickup since the supplied tone arm tracks at over 2X the replacement. I doubt you'll need to make any mods to the electronics. I'd try it and see.

Mark
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby djmeverett » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:29 pm

markrob wrote:Hi,

The replacement should be fine. You might have to adjust the weight to keep from killing the pickup since the supplied tone arm tracks at over 2X the replacement. I doubt you'll need to make any mods to the electronics. I'd try it and see.

Mark


Thanks Mark...yeah that tracking force weight number is pretty heavy. 35 grams versus 8!
I guess that was because of those straight steel needles used on those original Astatic crystal cartridges. MCM Electronics has them for a pretty low price so it might be worth the try.

Still looking for something to update or replace the cutter cartridge, if it's shot.
I'm just about done restoring the electronics, so we'll see what I can do with it and if the originals are any good.
BTW I saw an Ebay listing for a lot of Astatic & Weber crystal cartridges, so someone may pick those up and have some available if I decide to keep things stock.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/lot-of-vintage-ASTATIC-WEBSTER-CRYSTAL-PICK-UP-CARTRIDGES-phonographs-radios-/130968267816?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item1e7e512c28
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby markrob » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:58 pm

Hi,

I doubt those will be good either. The problem is the Rochelle Salt crystals in these pickup and cutter heads have a limited life. A PZT based ceramic is the way to go.

Mark
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby djmeverett » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:26 pm

markrob wrote:Hi,

I doubt those will be good either. The problem is the Rochelle Salt crystals in these pickup and cutter heads have a limited life. A PZT based ceramic is the way to go.

Mark


I'm sure that will be the case...
Do you know of any options for the cutter head. PZT based ceramic?
I've tested the motor and the spiral gear shaft with the tonearm and that all works.
I have a couple blank aluminum base discs (Duo) and one fiber base white (WG Recordio) that has been cut on both sides. No info or date written on it but it may be something my Dad made back in the day.
I guess I wouldn't mind having something newer for the cutter too, but not much luck finding what might work there.
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Re: Meissner Phonorecorder - 9-1065

Unread postby tragwag » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:58 am

I had a friend look over the electronics, and test the tubes in my Phonorecorder.
It is now up to good shape, thanks to a replacement (astatic?) X-26 cutting head I bought from a friend, which was supposedly rewound by Gib.

My only problem now is the turntable speed.
It definitely has something to do with the idler wheels, though I'm hesitant to do any work on them.
They seem really flimsy and easy to ruin.
There is a flat spot on the 33 idler, which causes a ticking noise in the recording.
Also the playback speed at both 33 and 78 are slightly fast.

Im hoping it's not a motor issue, but it's looking that way.
Any advice would be great!
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