Half Speed Mod for Neuman PS-66 Box?

[opcode66]

Does anyone know how to modify the PS-66 box to do half speed? I already did the diameter mods with no problem. Would love another switch for normal/half speed. Please let me know if any of you have done this or have the schematics for it!

[Nickou]

look the manual of the vms
if you have it ,you will find everything to do it , the values of the components are on the paper schematics.
but clearly , the pithch control of a vms66/70 is hard to use at halfspeed, very unstable , so overcuts etc .. a nightmare

very easy to use one box for all diameters , but to switch to half speed , I don t know , it means switching a lot of caps , possible but complicated , and few space to do it in those boxes ... I think the space is the problem
but you can also prepare several boxes , one per speed , probably the best and more accurate solution ( we did that )
but for us , the solution has been a new pitch control , the ultrapitch designed by JVO Studer ,it switch automaticaly to all speeds, absolutely stabble and as good as the one of a 80, even better.

but you are develloping a new pitch control , aren t you ? so whats happen with that ?
I can imagine than it is no as easy as than it seems

[opcode66]

Yes i am developing a system of my own. If i had a million hours in a day i would be done by now. Difficulty has not been a factor. I work as the CTO of a big company, i DJ, i Video Mix, i plan/promote/host house music events, I write and produce house music, master and cut vinyl, i just put out my own vinyl release, i just started a vinyl mastering business, i have a social life and i am developing several other electronics projects. Never said id be done with this project anytime soon.

Working with the lathe and its original components gives me inspiration for my own designs. Which is why i wanted to try modding the boxes for speed control. Just wondering if anyone has already done it and could save me some time figuring it out.

[Nickou]

for the speed , there is only one wire , so very simple , there is anther one for the light of the speed box wich indicate the speed, very simple too
but that is only to select the speed of the motor.

you have to set up L ,LV and V for each speed, and also having the correct values for the electronic , the cicuit is the same for all boxes , but not the value of the components ,they change for each speed
if you want to have anything in one box, i think it will be comlicated to find the space to build that, because you will need 4 cicuits , 5 if you wnt to cut at 78 , 6 if you want to make half speed at 78 rpm ...
the solution is on box per speed I think , You also have to think than you need 2 RIAA curves for you pitch box, or a filter wich correct the normall RIAA to halfspeed. so .. it is possible to do it in one box if you build a new one with separate cicuits and L,LV and V control, why not ...
we choosed the solution of one box per speed

also we have to think about the riaa curve of the amplifier , and for that I am very curious to know how pepole around are doing that .
if people her have sugestion or experiences to schare , it will be nice

we have 2 solutions , one is a liitle card I built wich is inside the sal and permit to switch between the normal RIAA , and the half spedd RIAA : sepereate cicuits

the second one is digital , JVO Studer did that for us , It is a program for the weiss eq1 , the error is less than +/- 0,1 dB , so ... very good ... the advantage of this one is than you don t need to modify anything in your system ,
the disadvantage is than you can use it only with digital sources, so full analog mastering at half speed is not possible.

any way , you can cut at half speed keeping the original curve for the pitch control ... it won t change a lot on a vms 70 pitch ... on a vms 80 or vinylium pitch , you will have some problems of over cut if you use a small land

[opcode66]

Thanks Nickou. I appreciate the input. Exactly what I need to get going. I wanted to mod my existing boxes to just do two speeds (normal and half). So, I would have two boxes each with two speed selections. Not trying to make a moded PS-66 that will do all speeds.

[Nickou]

do you have all the documentation for that ?
I am actualy in Barcelona , and all those paper are in paris , but if you wait a week or two I can post some scan

Hey guys here , how do you do your RIAA curve for halspeed , I know it is not the subjetct of the topic , But i am curious !!!

[JayDC]

Well I have never done half speed, but I have cut at 33 for play back at 45..

I would apply the riaa curve for the playback speed before the speed change..

In the digital domain you could "apply" the riaa plug-in of mark rob's into a new wav file, then change the sample rate..

In analog, you could record through the riaa processor onto a tape machine, then slow the tape down and cut it..

bottom line, the best way to do this is to apply the riaa to the master before changing the speed of the master..

Otherwise, you have to slide the whole curve down by about 5K.. and thats for 33 for playback at 45..

halfspeed would be more.. like 10K slide.. where 10Khz would be seen as 1Khz...

if you really want to pick the brain of a master halfspeed cutter, try to get a hold of miles showel at imastering.co.uk.. Stan Ricker doesn't respond to emails.. and those are the 2 guys.. like THE 2 guys..

[mossboss]

Hey all
There is quite a good thread here on this a little while back Do a search CD4 and Kev had a lot of input and a feud on it as well
By the way for a long time Neumann never approved or condoned half speed cutting
There is a circuilar they send out to all Neumann owners via Gotham audio to that effect
I have a copy of it but its burried somewhere in Aus and not here
But they did produce a half speed box regardless So I am not sure if this was a sales of more boxes excersise or what
I do have a Studer half speed unit on our SAL rack which is a well made hand wired magnificent piece of engineering as well as the schematics for it
We found that using the half speed cutting facility one gets a marginal improvement on some tracks particularly quite passages as for the rest it is very hard to discern
For what is cut today in a commercial sense it is just not something that improves the cut significant enough so as to justify the extra time required as no one is willing to pay the cutting guy double for his time
Also the addition of another item on the input chain has to be taken into consideration
We also have a half speed box standard Neumann stuff for two speeds 33 and 45
So what they gather dust like our tape decks 1/4", 1" and 24 track 2"
No doubt with what is available today the 4 high x 19" standard Studer rack mount unit can be reduced to size
Op
If you want the schemos you have to wait as they are half way around the world
I can see that this is not an overnight thing any way
By what you are posting you need to adopt my attitude its:

There 24 hours in a day and there is always an hour for lunch so if you stop having lunch you get 25 hours
It works for me
Cheers

Cheers

[Nickou]

I cut more than 50 % of my laquers at half speed because I have the sensation tha it is still better , sometime it is dificult to hear difference , but for some records it has been magical : high definition , realy musical.


about the input , I work at doble frequencie for the premastering , and go down at 44,1 or 48 when I cut , so it is bit per bit the same information , no distortion at this point of the process .
about the money , you can choose to charge more , or you can think than it is a part of the process , and if the record needs to be cut like that to give better result , it is inside the price : I charge the same price.

[JayDC]

yes, miles also charges the same price for half speed, and I heard a cut of his "Underworld - REZ/Reverse Cowgirl, on S12" and it sounded like a dream ,and was +12/0db.

[dietrich10]

The more I think about the more I want to work on this myself

[opcode66]

Yea, I at least want to give it a try. I guess I hadn't considered the riaa eq shift that would be required to make the mod work. I was initially just thinking that the PS-66 would be the only part needing moded.

[JayDC]

Yea, I at least want to give it a try. I guess I hadn't considered the riaa eq shift that would be required to make the mod work. I was initially just thinking that the PS-66 would be the only part needing moded.

thats what the whole paradigm process is about

Having achieved every possible goal at Masterpiece and needing a new challenge, Miles was invited to join the team at Metropolis in late 1997. Given the extensive facilities, equipment and unrivalled technical team that Metropolis has at its disposal, Miles creative streak went into overdrive. While spending much of his working time mastering music for CD or online delivery, Miles is particularly proud of the improvements he and the technical team have brought to the vinyl cutting process. Miles has re-introduced half speed cutting (known as The Paradigm Process) which has brought outstanding clarity to records cut this way. He is one of only two engineers in the World who are able to offer half speed mastering.

[Nickou]

Yes i am developing a system of my own. If i had a million hours in a day i would be done by now. Difficulty has not been a factor. I work as the CTO of a big company, i DJ, i Video Mix, i plan/promote/host house music events, I write and produce house music, master and cut vinyl, i just put out my own vinyl release, i just started a vinyl mastering business, i have a social life and i am developing several other electronics projects. Never said id be done with this project anytime soon.

Working with the lathe and its original components gives me inspiration for my own designs. Which is why i wanted to try modding the boxes for speed control. Just wondering if anyone has already done it and could save me some time figuring it out.

I you have so little free time , but all this knowledge so easy for you , you will save a lot time in malking something new .,



in fact , modifying those boxes will still a kind of "bricolage" . So leave it original and make your pitch box , we are all curious


there is 2 things : a new pitch box , and a new pitch box wich is better than the original, If it takes 12 years to JVO ( he still develloping) , it also took 14 years to neumann to present a new pitch control ( the 66 system and the 80), it wont t be probably so easy ... certainly more easy modifying the boxes

Strange to read that dificulty is not a problem ...It is so difficult for me than I feel a bit stupid ... it is difficult for everybody to make something better than what Neumann GMBH did , or simply to rebuild what they done with the same qulity of results ... and they where not stupid.

hmmm

[opcode66]

Instead of telling me what I can't do, why not give a brother some encouragement. I don't tell you what you should or shouldn't be doing with your time... Nice attitude man.

Besides, I wouldn't be making something new. I have the benefit of being able to reverse engineer two existing and working systems (Neumann and Zuma).

Finally, it isn't that difficult. There is a picture on the board of someone's rebuild of the pitch computer. All new and small. So, did they acieve the impossible? No. Anything is possible when you put your mind to it!

[Nickou]

my brother thought it was very complicated to do something good , and very complicated to make something better ,a lot of investigation etc ,he is not interesting in copying and remake , so we decided to buy the JVO pitch
it was cheaper than spending hundreds of hours or more to make something better than what we already have . While JVO works on his machines , we cut records ...
I personaly did a small system inspired from the ultra simple pictch of flozky and the ssl vca compressor , it works ! very funny to do it , but I can t say I designed a new pitch controler (I don t have this pretention) , I just had fun this summer making that .. I also built a feedback amplifier , tube RIAA encoder or other things related to vinyl cutting , just for fun , but they exist , they are real and for some of them , I use them .
if you want the schematics , I give them for happy soldering sessions !but no guaranties , if you want guaranties of result ask the real specialist !

and each time I had some dificulties to finish those project and more difficulties to begin them

to go back to the topic : to change the speed of the lyrec from the ps66 : only one wire , very easy ,did you find it ? if you want to build a new pitch , yes ,you have to kow how changing the speed of the motor .. and a bit more probably
happy developement with your PS66 boxes

cheers

[mossboss]

Hey Op
I am sure Nickou means no offence mate The difficulty is that the translation never comes out well
He is thinking in Spanish translating in his head and writing in English
Its always an issue
Even with excelent English speakers it is an issue as they never get to grips with every day speech in an English speaking environment they just do not have an understanding of the nuances of the language
Trust me on this and I can tell you I know, Besides struggling with English I speak another two so
I always have a laugh at some of the stuff that is a literal translation word for word
As it does not fit the English way which is hard enough if it is literal figurative
Here is a quote:
Literal and figurative language is a distinction in traditional systems for analyzing language. Literal language refers to words that do not deviate from their defined meaning. Figurative language refers to words, and groups of words, that exaggerate or alter the usual meanings of the component words. Figurative language may involve analogy to similar concepts or other contexts, and may involve exaggerations. These alterations result in figures of speech.
For me it was an issue but no longer worry about this, but my reaction was just like yours until I cottoned on some time back
Nowdays I just look at the msg and try to get the gist out of it
Not what they say but what is the meaning of the msg
And Nickou its all good The game is still full of challenges That is for sure
Cheers

[Nickou]

yes Chriss , you re right
not so easy to write english like I write spanish or french ( I spend my life between those 2 contries ). and not so easy for a lot of people of this forum to sometime to understand what we read , and you are one of the hardest ! beleive me ! no offense in that .., simply vocabulary
but if we make this forum in spanich , we won t have a lot of people , in french a bit more , but not so much ... so English is the best ...

[opcode66]

Ok, from looking over the schematic I see three points that would need to be switchable to achieve a PS66 box that would be capable of two speeds (e.g. 33.3 and 16 2/3). This mod would work in assiciation with the diameter switch mod.

As I read the schematic more than one wire would be required for the motor to change speed. 1b and 2b on 3013 both need to be switchable. The third wire 4a on 3012 simply changes the RPM lamp display.

A Three Pole 2 Position Rotary Switch, wires, soldering iron, solder, desolder braid and a phillips screwdriver are all that is required for the mod. I use alphanumeric sticker labels on the wires before soldering into the box so you always know what wire is connected to what pin. It is also easy to check each pin wire with a multimeter to insure you soldered your wires to the correct points before soldering on the switch.

You can drill a few holes in the side of the box enclosure. One large one for the wires at the very bottom of the enclosure. Several others that will allow you to screw a small plastic project box to the side of the enclosure. The platic project box will have the rotary switch(es) mounted on it. Tuck in the wires and screw the box onto the side of the enclosure. Screw the enclosure back down onto the PS-66. Presto you are done.

Speed Mod for PS66

45 Mod
Tuschel PS3013
-------------------------
Motor Control
3a -> 1b = 45 RPM
OR
1b -> y = 22 1/2 RPM

Motor Control
4a -> 2b = 45 RPM
OR
2b -> x = 22 1/2 RPM

Tuschel PS3012
-------------------------
RPM Lamp Selection
3b -> 6b = 45 RPM
OR
3b -> 5b = 33 1/2 RPM





33 Mod
Tuschel PS3013
-------------------------
Motor Control
3a -> 1a = 33 RPM
OR
1a -> y = 16 2/3 RPM

Motor Control
4a -> 2a = 33 RPM
OR
2a -> x = 16 2/3 RPM

Tuschel PS3012
-------------------------
RPM Lamp Selection
3b -> 6a = 33 RPM
OR
3b -> 5a = 16 2/3 RPM


Comments anybody? Constructive input is always welcomed.

[mossboss]

I do have a moded box back in Aus plus another ex Neumann one
The Neumann standard issue is a half 33.1/3
The other is a moded standard speed unit
Looked at it a few times but since we never bothered with half speed It is just sitting there gathering dust I suppose
When back there Happy to take a look at it take some shots for you
Did not seem to have anything on the outside
This is a 45 rpm module moded to do half speed (i think)
Have you a half speed box of any description?
It would help you if you did as you would be doing a straight comparison
Any ay it seems that we are going to be getting a lot of input on this
Lets hope your efforts yield a good rssult
If Paul Gold chimed in I am sure he would throw a good shining light on this his input is always good it would be worthwile
Gold Where are You?
Cheers