edison cylinder recordings.

Devoted to discussion of all-acoustic record-playing machines, such as Edison cylinder players, Victrolas, Brunswick Ultonas, and the like. When the Big Blackout happens, this will be the only audio evidence of our civilization (as it is).

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flozki
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edison cylinder recordings.

Post: # 1213Unread post flozki
Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:17 am

hello
i have to do some edison cylinder recordings. has someone done any yet? if yes i like to share experience.
i plan to build a cutting device out of an old edison phonograph with regulated mandril motor, feedscrew for the recording head and a custommade vertical monocutterhead with feedback.

the blank cylinders are my biggest problem at the moment. i bought some on eby to recoat for the beginning.later i like to cast my own cylinders.

what material? what coating? i dont know yet. any ideas tips, experience is very appreciated

flo

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JayDC
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Post: # 1214Unread post JayDC
Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:07 pm

a piece of pipe coated in paint?.. :?

Maybe just a piece of PVC pipe, like a cylinder vinylrecorder..

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emorritt
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Edison recording

Post: # 1219Unread post emorritt
Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:12 am

Flo:

I've done a lot of work with Edison equipment doing acoustic recording. I have designed several recorders that work better than the "home" recorders sold by the Edison company, but they're all acoustic. There is a guy in England who makes newly poured wax blanks. I will locate his contact information and e-mail it to you. I have also seen a setup like you describe with an electric cutter set up to record vertically (they used a Fairchild head). If you're looking for a way to master and produce copies, I do know that Apollo masters has attempted to make a "master" Edison cylinder - I don't know for who, but there is a picture on their website. The problem with using a metal-base master for cylinder recordings is that the original couldn't be broken out of the resulting mold once the plating and backing had been built up on the original. Cylinder "stampers" (molds) tend to last longer than disc stampers since the material is flowed in, shrinks, and drops out, rather than having material forcefully pressed against the mold as with flat records.

Hope this helps.

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kd88
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wax recording blanks

Post: # 1246Unread post kd88
Sat May 05, 2007 12:28 pm

I have purchased blanks from Paul Morris 'accross the pond', ie., UK. They are excellent, but they are brown wax and therefore not acceptable for cutting at 200 TPI (four minute).

I have made my own blanks also. I used a formula I extrapolated from a variety of sources. The basic idea is that you use lots of stearic, some wax (I used parrafin and beeswax), a dropper of lye in solution (to neutralize the stearic?) and a dash of vybar to hold it all together.

I've also made a series of electronic recorders. If you want to cut a good deep groove that plays well on vintage equipment, I recommend using a peizo driver. If you want to see how wide a range you can cut to wax, and you want to play back with a magnetic cartridge, use a magnetic driver. Either way, all of this is doable and very instructive.

I'm not done with these experiments.

I've got a nice test rig that is an Edison Standard D bedplate and gearing, but the motor is a stepper and it is controlled by a linistepper driver. This is basically CNC gear. I also have the potential to run the motor under computer control, and have thought that Max would make a good platform for doing this. There a are a number of freeware dedicated stepper driver applications floating around. I have yet to actually try it.

If you want more info, I'll do my best to share my data.
kay dee 88

"a warm tube and soft wax..."

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flozki
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Post: # 1251Unread post flozki
Mon May 07, 2007 12:20 pm

ok. i did some tests with pp-tubes.normally used for water sink installation.

i think that could work. except they are not conical.
at the moment i have to redo the head suspension. so some pictures either from emmoritt or kd88 would be very appreciated...

my first impressions:

http://www.floka.com/lofi/edison/edison_cut.html

but definitely have to change the head suspension.
i will come back with the solution.

so if you have some pictures. form the piezo head, the suspension, whatver... let me know

kd88: did you cast your own cylinders? how you have done the casting tool?

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emorritt
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Cylinders, electric head

Post: # 1288Unread post emorritt
Sat May 19, 2007 1:36 pm

Hey kd88; do you happen to know Shawn Borri? He's from IL - don't remember where exactly, but he makes the original Edison white wax from the 1880's and has a device to cast blanks.

If anyone's interested I just picked up a 1925 Western Electric head and would like to post some pictures, but don't know how - anyone know how/where I can do this? It's one of the first Maxfield/Harrison 'rubber line' recorders, complete with original advance ball. It doesn't have a permanent magnet like later cutters, but a field coil just like the first loudspeakers that creates the magnetic field. All coils test good - going to try to figure out how to mount it on one of my lathes. Wierd shaped so kinda difficult.

andybee
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Post: # 1289Unread post andybee
Sun May 20, 2007 7:45 pm

wicked!!!!
:D

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kd88
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replies, various...

Post: # 1297Unread post kd88
Sun May 27, 2007 12:37 am

Shawn Borri...
He might have drifted to New York State. I managed to 'win' a couple of his blanks on ebay. His blanks are white wax (ceresin). Quite competent. It's like making records on the late 1890-style wax, so an instructive activity. fer sure.

Molds: I used an ordinary polycarbonate candle mold, with a paper core to for the shape of the mandrel. This worked great. You can peel your core mold (destroying it, but it was easy to make) when the wax is hard.
This method is very stright forward. You are not messing with difficult materials. As someone other than me pointed out (relating to making wax masters), the wax must cool evenly and slowly. But if you put the narrow end at the bottom, you have gravity doing some of the work of settling-in the cooling wax. If you wrap some plastic or cloth around the core form, you have a stronger blank. I used good old cling wrap from the kitchen.

You'll need something (a lathe, a shaver...) to get the resulting cylinder trued up.

I'll do some pix soon, Flo.
kay dee 88

"a warm tube and soft wax..."

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THEVICTROLAGUY
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Re: edison cylinder recordings.

Post: # 23866Unread post THEVICTROLAGUY
Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:38 pm

GREETINGS,
if your looking for recording blanks i have hundreds in stock as i write this, all original Edison black wax Dictaphone cylinders that have been shaved and trimmed for use on the Edison cylinder phonograph, they make outstanding recordings and can be shaved 16 to 18 times.

i also carry speaking tubes, listening tubes, recording horns, floor cranes, etc. i specialize in recording custom two minute cylinders. i can duplicate any cylinder with results that sound as good or better than the original. we have done quite well with this, we supply cylinder copies to museums and schools around the world, this allows them to play a very rare cylinder on an original Edison phonograph with out fear of damaging a rare original.

if you have any questions feel free to contact me thevictrolaguy@gmail.com

here are a few examples of what is possible on the Edison cylinder phonograph using black wax blanks and my recording process...

Benjamin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqDRbBRAbbc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX2U6WQnKao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOCKo_bDNZo

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THEVICTROLAGUY
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Re: edison cylinder recordings.

Post: # 23867Unread post THEVICTROLAGUY
Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:57 pm

GREETINGS,
this is a copy of an original Edison black wax gold moulded cylinder. this is an mp3 from an online archive transferred to an original Edison brown wax recording blank using my recording process....

BENJAMIN

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shawnborri
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Re: edison cylinder recordings.

Post: # 37810Unread post shawnborri
Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:23 am

Cylinder records in general are a metallic soap. As far as Chuck Richards, Paul Morris, and Myself believe. Edison's team had spent great deals of money and time, months and years to develop cylinder record formulas. Starting in 1888-1889 the base aluminum stearate compound formula # 871 which is aluminum (aluminum acetate at the time) replaced in 1896 by sheet aluminum metal dissolved in a solution hydroxide and water. This solution is filtered until it is as clear as water, and added to melted stearic acid. This compound worked well, but was very hard. By December of 1888 the 871 was substituted with formula # 957. The aluminum compound by itself was very hard, and wore cutters and playback stili quickly, thus it needed to be made softer. Red Olaic acid was used to soften the 871 formula. Everything seems to be fine, until the spring (May) of 1889, when humidity started making 957 start oozing and making a mildewed appearance on the records, and all from late 1888-1889 made on these blanks are lost. Aylsworth, the chemist who worked most of this out, had visions of losing his job. He did several experiments, however by # 1029 the standard "Brown Wax" formula was developed, except for some tests with amount, and substitution of acetate of aluminum for sheet aluminum and adding sodium carbonate instead of just sodium hydroxide in an effort to reduce production costs, this formula was then used with very little change from August of 1889 until Edison stopped making home recording blanks, which to my knowledge were available into the 1920's! The olaic was replaced by ceresin. Ediphone brand blanks were similar to the brown wax formula, and aluminum based ceresin was replaced with paraffin, and had #503 filter aid, and sterin pitch. The Ediphone formula was made for office use, and not for long term storage, it is easily damaged by humidity in the air which makes the surface noisy if not kept in low humidity, from 68-72 F. Dictaphone brand blanks are a lead stearate based myrtl wax, and paraffin. (even in 1955.) Entertainment cylinders of the metallic soap kind are aluminum stearate based, and have palm wax, copper and zinc stearates, pine tar or Ebonite added to make them hard. Wax Amberols ???????? do not know.

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THEVICTROLAGUY
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Re: edison cylinder recordings.

Post: # 44781Unread post THEVICTROLAGUY
Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:59 pm

THERE IS NO LEAD IN EDIPHONE OR DICTAPHONE CYLINDERS, I PROVED IT !!!
same crap over and over, people publishing bullshit rather than doing a real test, real testing cost money, bullshit is free. i tested every dictation cylinder i have, nuphonic, edison, standard. NONE OF THEM CONTAIN LEAD. you are told by this same person that these cylinders will fog in a matter of weeks and they will wear out in a few plays. all of this information is WRONG. i have currently produced 4,000+ cylinder recordings, not one of them has ever been returned because it wore out or developed "fog", all of the information being presented here is pure bullshit. there is NO lead in dictation cylinders.

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Tim w
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Re: edison cylinder recordings.

Post: # 50536Unread post Tim w
Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:45 pm

I know want to protect your business, but, as Shawn states, ediphone cylinders do NOT contain lead, columbia dictophone cylinders do. The majority of his time is taken by studying formulas, practices & making blanks. I don’t think he would just make something up because he felt like it.
Anyway I hope we all can enjoy our common interests, and see you at Union.

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