Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Introduce yourself! Recommended for people who are just starting out, as opposed to experienced lathe cutters who are new members.

Moderators: piaptk, tragwag, Steve E., Aussie0zborn

User avatar
Brian.Rowland
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:41 pm

Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 57971Unread post Brian.Rowland
Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:41 pm

Hello all, first post here. I’ve picked up a few Gakken Toy Record Makers (GTRM) over the past couple months and have been spending most of my cutting time working on optimizing (I have a nice collection of vinyl drink coasters now). I have a few programs I use to refine the cuts: pink noise, test tones, and a couple reference tracks. I’m sharing some of my findings, and have a few questions. I’m interested in learning much more about getting the best cuts I can, given the limited capabilities of the GTRM.

OBSERVATIONS:
  • The power source used for the GTRM seems to make a significant difference. I’ve settled on USB battery packs which seem to output true DC and don’t interfere w/ the cutting/playback like wall adapters. Wall plug USB adapters seem to output pulsating DC and lots of audible hum.
  • The consensus seems to be to use a cutter setting between .9cm and 1.1cm, and I typically cut on the deeper side, though I’m beginning to suspect the deep cut is degrading my fidelity.
  • You MUST feed it mono. Even though the unit ships with a stereo-to-mono cable, my results are significantly better when my source is outputting true mono and not summing the signal at the destination. My SOP is to use a mid/side EQ and cut out all side signal, which allows me to drive the cutter harder and reduces vibration.
  • Isolating the GTRM from the surface it sits on is also critical. Vibration ruins cuts, and the cutter head’s own vibrations will cause the chassis to resonate and the head will start jumping. I picked up some silicone hemispheres from Hudson Hi-fi which seem to help a lot with eliminating needle jumps.
  • I lubricated the GTRM gears and cutter track with white lithium grease, and had very good results with that. It’s especially helpful with eliminating wobble in the cutter track.
  • I’ve pretty much cracked being able to cut a full 4 minutes per side by using a second GTRM as an uptake reel for the swarf. I mount a cylinder of packing foam on the spindle wrapped with masking tape w/ adhesive side out. I grab the swarf under the cutter and lead it to the uptake reel. This method keeps the swarf away from the cutter and performs better than looping the swarf around the cutter’s spindle. I can cut 4 or 5 records before I need to clean the swarf off the cylinder.
  • I’ve tried using lighter fluid on disks, and it does seem to show the gunk and help me clean the disk before a cut, but it leaves the PS looking really dull and I can’t really hear a difference from the cleaning, even when letting it soak for 5 minutes.
  • I picked up some 5” BLANQ disks to try out, and learned the hard way these are only suitable for embossing w/ the Gakken. I probably ruined 2 needles trying to cut on these disks even with lighter fluid for lubrication. I watched Ethic Radio’s video on YouTube where they cut/emboss a BLANQ and I can’t even approximate the quality they achieved. I may build a dedicated GTRM embosser with a flipped needle to work on improving my cuts since they play so cleanly, but the output is very quiet and my test cuts track awful on a real turntable. I’d really like to get a working configuration with the BLANQs since they are CD-sized and there are more packaging options out there.
  • I’ve also tried lubricating the surface of a PS disk with the white lithium, and it seems to help with surface noise and fidelity, but the record winds up pretty messy. I presume this is similar to lubricating with turtle wax--haven’t tried that yet.
  • I have not heated any PS or PETG disks before cutting. LaserActiveGuy on YouTube mentions microwaving his disks, but I haven’t tried yet
  • The cutter’s axle binds pretty badly, and the tension spring tends to bind if the adjustment screw is torqued down. Haven’t experimented with that yet, but will probably have to as I try cutting lighter.
  • Integrated cartridges like Ortofon Concorde struggle to maintain tracking in the last ⅔ of a GTRM cut 5”. The needle will typically jump and run to center. I’ve got a ½ inch headshell with an AT needle mounted at an angle and wired mono (parallel) that will play a full 4 minute cut, but doesn’t sound that great.
QUESTIONS:
  • Is there a standard calibration procedure for setting up a new cutter? I started with pink noise and wound up down the rabbit hole trying to troubleshoot/overcome the sharp 5K drop-off the cutter has. I’ve tinkered with adding a severe boost at 5K+, and have managed to get the cutter to cut 8K, and even up to 10K at ghostly levels, but the bass is pretty much eliminated to drive the high-end hard enough. Seems like I’m fighting with the noise floor now.
  • Has anyone ever posted audio files for calibrating a cutter head?
  • Is there a method to identify optimal cut depth and cut volume? I can drive the head pretty hard from the headphone output of my Focusrite iTrack.
  • Does the lighter fluid actually lubricate the cut, or only clean the surface?
  • How do I know if static is an issue with my disks and cuts?
  • Has anyone traced the circuit on the GTRM PCB? I’m wondering if the PCB has any internal EQing that accounts for the 5K roll off, or if it’s just the physical limitations of the needle and chassis.
  • Are there any known sources for PS disks?
Thanks much,
-Brian

User avatar
markrob
Posts: 1636
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:14 am
Location: Philadelphia Area

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 57982Unread post markrob
Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:23 pm

Hi,

Don't have one of these, but I'm impressed that you are attempting to optimize its performance given its target user. I think you would be best served by driving the head directly with a higher powered solid state amp. This will give you mode reserve power to get the head moving at high frequencies given the amount of EQ needed in that range. Measure the DC resistance of the head to make sure its setup to run with a 4-16 ohm amp. Then shoot for a 100-150 watt amp and you should be in a much better position to eek out the last bit of performance. Keep in mind that you want to insure you don't hit the head with more that a watt or so on a average basis. But you will find that its easy to reach peaks of hundreds of watts for very short durations. Fusing with a 1/4 amp fast blow fuse to start would be a good idea, but even then, take care or you could smoke it.

Mark

User avatar
Dadboltz
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:23 pm

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 57984Unread post Dadboltz
Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:16 am

Thanks for your observations. Your trick about turning the stylus 180 and embossing really salvaged the Gakken for me, given that every cut I did would skip even on the supplied blanks. Then I killed the two supplied styli trying to cut Blanqs.

I did manage to make it emboss by weighting the cutter head with a couple of small magnets, wiping the Blanqs with watered down acetone and heating to between 65-75 C. It's noisy, but kind of in a good way in that it sounds like live music.

I'm curious to try and cut with it again but blanks seem to be about $20 each at the moment!

User avatar
Kat
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:20 pm

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 57988Unread post Kat
Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:23 am

Nice observations! Since my EZ Record Maker is my only working lathe, I’ll definitely keep these in mind!

I am unable to answer a lot but I do know that polystyrene is a glassy material and is probably prone to some noise no matter what.

As for alternative sources of discs, I am literally doing that as a matter of fact. Aside from cutting, I make crafts out of recycled plastic and am currently attempting to make recycled polystyrene discs and offer them as a modern day Voice-O-Graph service. Now they’re crappy but relatively speaking they’re a lot better on the Gakken than CDs or picnic plates, which don’t seem to track at all when moved to a regular turntable.
0FF120FF-A342-4B21-9F48-6728D9576660.jpeg
7386D1CB-F67B-486B-97F3-D780D235E4F6.jpeg
What I have learned is that you are definitely looking for something at least as thick as the discs that come with the machine. I’d say try it out on some PS sheets.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Brian.Rowland
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:41 pm

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Observations and Questions

Post: # 58122Unread post Brian.Rowland
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:33 pm

Thanks very much for the replies. I had to step away from the Gakken TRM for a couple weeks, and have only had a couple sessions with it since my post. Here are a couple things I've worked on:
  • Reducing the cutter weight seems to have helped a lot with lowering the noise floor of the cuts. I reduced from .9cm to .6cm after making a series of test cuts of silence (GTRM in playback mode while cutting). The cutter is now making its best sounding cuts, but swarf management is tougher w/ the thread breaking frequently between the cutting head and the uptake reel.
  • Until I get a chance to pursue @markrob's suggestion of an external amp, I'm not going to troubleshoot the 5K roll-off. I'd toyed with the idea, and figured out how I would wire up an extra connector for the cutter to stay compatible w/ a stock turntable, but need to set this aside for now.
  • I found I was having more success increasing fidelity cutting at 33 for 45 playback. I'll probably focus on that approach for cutting and tune up the IRIAA curve for that use.
  • I managed to get one good 2-sided embossing on a BLANQ by using a fresh cutting needle, adding a lot of extra weight to the cutter (~30 grams) like @Dadboltz, and had to lower the volume quite a bit. It's cool to have a usable embossed record, but the volume reduction really hurts the listening experience. At high volume the embossed grooves sound quite good, but the cutter can't maintain a groove. Not sure how to better stabilize the cutter head yet.

User avatar
nick_s
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:58 am

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 58337Unread post nick_s
Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:48 am

Hi,
Can any of you Gakken Ninjas tell me what the thread size is on the record clamp, please?

User avatar
SquirrelMonkey
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:54 pm

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 58368Unread post SquirrelMonkey
Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:52 pm

I improved my recording quality significantly by making 78 RPM records. The Gakken recorder only supports 33 1/3 and 45 RPM, but the free software Audacity has an RPM converter. I slowed down the music speed from 78 to 33 1/3 and this allows me to record 78 RPM records. I still have to try those other tricks.

Two examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9MvdmiH6TI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwQCpeFHpTc&t=1s

User avatar
Dadboltz
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:23 pm

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 58371Unread post Dadboltz
Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:37 pm

Hi Squirrel Monkey,

Are you cutting at 33 rpm? And playing back at 78rpm on a different machine? Sound quality is great. Is this cutting or embossing?

User avatar
SquirrelMonkey
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:54 pm

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 58372Unread post SquirrelMonkey
Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:14 pm

Hi Dadboltz.
Yes, I cut at 33 rpm. The input MP3 is slowed down enough that it sounds normal at 78 rpm.

User avatar
SquirrelMonkey
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:54 pm

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 58374Unread post SquirrelMonkey
Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:42 pm

Dadboltz wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:37 pm
Hi Squirrel Monkey,

Are you cutting at 33 rpm? And playing back at 78rpm on a different machine? Sound quality is great. Is this cutting or embossing?
What is embossing, by the way? English is my 3rd language and I have no idea what it means in this context.

User avatar
Kat
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:20 pm

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 58383Unread post Kat
Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:04 pm

SquirrelMonkey wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:42 pm
Dadboltz wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:37 pm
Hi Squirrel Monkey,

Are you cutting at 33 rpm? And playing back at 78rpm on a different machine? Sound quality is great. Is this cutting or embossing?
What is embossing, by the way? English is my 3rd language and I have no idea what it means in this context.

Cutting is removing material from the disc, embossing is like making a dent in the disc.

User avatar
SquirrelMonkey
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:54 pm

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 58387Unread post SquirrelMonkey
Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:31 pm

Kat wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:04 pm
SquirrelMonkey wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:42 pm
Dadboltz wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:37 pm
Hi Squirrel Monkey,

Are you cutting at 33 rpm? And playing back at 78rpm on a different machine? Sound quality is great. Is this cutting or embossing?
What is embossing, by the way? English is my 3rd language and I have no idea what it means in this context.

Cutting is removing material from the disc, embossing is like making a dent in the disc.
Thank you! That makes sense.

User avatar
andyburnout
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:22 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 58588Unread post andyburnout
Thu May 13, 2021 8:46 am

How’re you all going with your gakken? I’ve made few mistakes out of excitement, pretty fun stuff. How loud are people cutting out, should I be cranking it?

User avatar
mrd
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:46 am

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 58726Unread post mrd
Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:22 am

Some great stuff here. I'll add to the pile of mods exploration.

I've just added a separate motor for pitch control, lead in / lead out, and a kill switch for making locked grooves easily.

Re. faster recording, I've gone in the other direction and have the ability to slow down the turntable too .. not about quality for me, but making longer loops :)

https://www.instagram.com/p/CP3KXQqHsNv/

Dusty
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:50 pm

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 58936Unread post Dusty
Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:59 pm

How can we post photos here?
Hacked a Gakken. lol

User avatar
mrd
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:46 am

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 58939Unread post mrd
Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:18 pm

Dusty wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:59 pm
How can we post photos here?
Hacked a Gakken. lol
Need to host the images somewhere then put the link in between the tags [ img ] [ /img ] without the spaces between the brackets and img (click the button of the image on the task bar and it will make these tags). Or you can do it with a thumbnail and a nested link to the large image. A site like https://imgbb.com/ generates these for you as you upload and you can just paste them in to your comment. You need the BB code ones :)

Dusty
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:50 pm

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 59018Unread post Dusty
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:52 pm

Image
This is what you do when you want to cut a 12" record but can't afford a real lathe...
Hahaaa

User avatar
mrd
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:46 am

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 59019Unread post mrd
Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:24 am

:lol: :lol: :lol: HA ha ha! That is amazing!

Dusty
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:50 pm

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 59051Unread post Dusty
Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:30 pm

Thanks, it worked too! I have since replaced it with a Rek-o-Kut m-12/Rondine l-34.
:)

User avatar
mrd
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:46 am

Re: Gakken Toy Record Maker: Ovservations and Questions

Post: # 59055Unread post mrd
Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:07 am

Nice. The main lathe I use at the moment is M12(S) based too - ROK imperial II :)

Post Reply