I'm new,need some help(Starting Out-"Newbie Gold")

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appache
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I'm new,need some help(Starting Out-"Newbie Gold")

Post: # 7517Unread post appache
Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:38 pm

Hi ,

I have a small diy record label and have been interested in records for years - saw peter king and his little shop on youtube recently and found it quite amazing

i was in contact with a guy who could cut flexi 7s on xray photos - and finally tracked some down so the interest in this is growing

i figured - if this guy can do it at home for fun and only charge me the cutting stylus - i probably can do this?

now i understand i must read on the subject to learn about the subject and cant expect everyone to just tell me straight up what to do (well you can, but its nice to UNDERSTAND what you are doing)

i live in canada so record pressings dont come cheap either as there are none here

so i am looking at perhaps getting into this as a hobby (who knows after) but i am feeling a bit overwhelmed by technical terms and stuff going on here

ive looked a bit and dont know where to get started really - so if someone could point me in the right direction - it would be totally awesome

so yeah im prety much starting from zero here ...but yeah, im hopping you guys can give me a lil help!
Cheers

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blacknwhite
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Re: I am new - need some help

Post: # 7518Unread post blacknwhite
Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:27 pm

Hi appache, welcome!
appache wrote:i was in contact with a guy who could cut flexi 7s on xray photos - ... i figured - if this guy can do it at home for fun and only charge me the cutting stylus - i probably can do this?
Yes! solo plates can be used too - here's a video where someone's using an old 1930's Presto K-10 cutter, which show up now & then on eBay:

Image
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcaBlkJQ0bw
appache wrote:now i understand i must read on the subject to learn about the subject and cant expect everyone to just tell me straight up ... but i am feeling a bit overwhelmed by technical terms... so if someone could point me in the right direction - it would be totally awesome
No prob. The info you need for terminology is on the net, for free. First, I'd reccomend these youtube vids from the Canadian TV show (which I am TOTALLY addicted to!!!), "How It's Made", showing the "professional version" of cutting & pressing, if you ahven't seen it already: It does gloss over details but gives best overview: Your home process will be different, but still useful to know, and it covers some terms:

Image
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rEmHkumWXI

Then, you need a cutting lathe: There are 2 brands you can get ready-made for high-quality cuts in the $7,000 price area, but I take it you're looking for something cheaper. For maybe about $100-$300, depending on how lucky you are or how much of the repair work you do yourself, you should be able to get a working old-style very-low-fidelity cutter up and running, like the one in the vid, above. The rest of this email is pretty much geared in that direction.

You'll most likely start with a 1930s or 1940s machine since they're the cheapest (but still not cheap). With that in mind, I'd reccomend getting a free copy online of this book "The recording and reproduction of sound" by Oliver Read, 2nd ed., 1952: It covers many things, including how to cut records. Read that part. Twice. It even specifically discusses the use of the types of home recorders you'll probably start out with - either "home recorders" , or "Semi-pro" units like a Rek-O-Kut or Presto, from the 1930s, 40s & early 50s:

http://www.pmillett.com/Books/intro_read_recording.pdf

Now, as far as actually GETTING a lathe: Are you mechanically or electronically inclined? It's much cheaper to get one needing restoration & fix it yourself. You can also build a "Franken-lathe" from various parts, which is what I've done, using an old tank-like radio station 3-speed turntable, a 1949 RCA "hi-fi" cutterhead, and a Rek-o-kut 16" carriage.

The good news is that in Canada, I believe you're on 120-vold, 60-Hz power lines the same as the USA (right?) - if so, then you can buy a machine from the USA, where probably most are.

There are many of the cheaper home recorders from the 1940's that come across ebay. That's about the cheapest lathe you could start with. The sound will be - well - very "1940s". Most have ONLY a 78 rpm speed setting, but, some have both 33 rpm and 78 rpm. These are usually the ones with a brown motorboard, and dual green tone arms, and a green "33/78" speed switch beside the turntable. They come across ebay now & then with names like "general industries, wilcox gay, lathe, cutter" etc. Most DON'T work out-of-the-box. If you're lucky, you can get a better one made by Presto or Rek-O-Kut.

Most of these have a chrystal-type cutterhead which often but not always goes bad over time. The man who can help you get one of these units restored to working condition, if you don't want to learn about tube amp restoration yourself, is a fellow named Gib at West-Tech. Here's his link: If you surf his site, you'll see a section for home recorders, and cutterhead rebuilding: I don't know his prices, so you'll have to ask if they're not on his page: You could also ask him for more "general direction" in learning the hobby: Click the small yellow links on the left that say "cutter head repair" and "cutter restoration":

http://www.west-techservices.com/p9.htm

If you want to just get him to restor the cutterhead, & do the rest of the reastoration of the cutter yourself, this site has all the info you need for restoring old vacuum-tube amps, radios, & phonographs (& therefore, cutters) from that era: (a whole nother hobby)

Antique Radio Forums
http://antiqueradios.com/forums/index.php

This is a "scatter-shot" attempt to answer your questions on how to start cheap low-fi cutting - hope this helps - checkout the youtube vids & the section of the book linked above pertaining to cutting records, & checkout eBay, & ask away - of course: CAUTION - often ebay sellers don't know what they have - so be sure you look at the pictures if you're gonna drop some $ on a lathe to SEE if it actually includes a cutterhead or not. Often they'll make it sound like it does, but it doesn't. Also, obviously, a lather must either have an overhead carriage to carry the cutterhead, or it must have the 2 tone arms, one thin one for playback & fat one for cutting - otherwise, it's incomplete.

ALSO: Some brief facts:

There's 2 types of "cutting":

CUTTING - you actually chisel away some material out of the blank disk to make the groove

EMBOSSING - what Peter King does: You mash a pointed tip down into a somewhat soft surface and "squash" a groove into it. Lower fidelity / less high-end response, and you get "horns" (see below), but hey, it works for Peter King and all his customers!

------------------
Terminology:

HORNS - raised edges on the cut-out V-shaped groove. If you play a record with horns, when you drop the needle, if the needle lands in the gap BETWEEN grooves, the raised "horn" ridges on either side of the groove will prevent it from falling in the groove until you give it a nudge; also, you cannot electroplate or mold a disc with major horns to make duplicates. But for "lathe-cut" low-fi records, may be "good enough" if that's what you want.

CUTTERHEAD - the actual part (usually around fist-sized) that takes in electricity, and converts it to motion to vibrate the cutting (or embossing) stylus. Range in price on ebay from $10 for low-fi old needing-restoration, to I don't know.... $10,000?... for pro stereo.

BLANKS: many materials: traditional laquer-coated discs, lexan plastic sheets, solo plastic picnic plates, even blank-pressed PVC discs (very hard material to cut).

CUTTING STYLII: different sizes, shapes, materials. For embossing, see the thread somewhere on this forum about Peter King: Just grind down a Victrola steel needle to a very sharp conical point (they cost about $5 for a pack of 100) - can't beat that for price. For actual cutting: metal, sapphire/ruby, or diamond precision-machined chisel shape. The book linked above will tell you all about the properties of the chisel-shaped cutting stylus (as of 1952). Diamond only needed for harder materials (PVC, Lexan); sapphire/ruby or even metal ok for softer stuff, like solo plates / traditional lacquer-coated discs.

Hope this helps

- Bob

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piaptk
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Post: # 7520Unread post piaptk
Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:24 pm

Also, Gib refurbishes and sells the old GI cutters for $350-$400. SO, you might ask him what he has available. That is what I started out with (I was in exactly your same boat... running Record Label, using Peter King, wanted to do my own cutting and get into the hobby, etc). I got my home cutter from Gib, started making plates, having a great time... Then I upgraded to a Presto and almost wish I hadn't. I've spent tons of money ($3000+) on the lathe, Styli, lacquers, parts, and repairs, vacuum, heater, etc etc... Moving up to a bigger cutter for doing Lo-fi releases so far (3 months into it) hasn't panned out. I'm broke and my fiancee is pissed because I'm playing with the lathe and on this board all the time trying to get it figured out and spending time with her. That being said, when I get good cuts, it's a pretty satisfying feeling! But the learning curve is super steep after coming from one of those little home cutters.

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mossboss
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Bob

Post: # 7524Unread post mossboss
Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:47 pm

Mate this is GOLD why dont you ask our E Spinola to put it up as a sticky with a note "Newbies Start Here" This will save a lot of repeated post's
Cheers
Chris

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piaptk
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Re: Bob

Post: # 7527Unread post piaptk
Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:54 am

mossboss wrote:Mate this is GOLD why dont you ask our E Spinola to put it up as a sticky with a note "Newbies Start Here" This will save a lot of repeated post's
Cheers
that's exactly what I was thinking for
the newbie forum! :-)

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mossboss
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Newbies

Post: # 7529Unread post mossboss
Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:40 am

Hey Man
I never dissagreed with you
Keep in mind we do have a lot of prople joining asking getting answers and never contribute anything on another post not even a Thanks Guys most of the times
I can name a few but I am sure you can dig them up yourself by looking at the member list
They come on like a hurricane hot and wet and they leave with a trail of rather annoyed people left behind Arghhhhhh
Never mind we are still here though just keeping the flame going Hey
I am with you New section I am not sure personally as it will involve a lot of someones time For sure
A way may be what you are suggesting but any one is allowed to post anywhere it is a very open forum indeed
Cheers
Chris

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appache
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Post: # 7532Unread post appache
Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:49 am

Hey thanks alot for those links - when i get home from work i will most definatly look at all those and the youtube videos.

its also nice to hear someone story as to starting off exactly in the same spot as me - most def a confidance builder

-------------

when you guys say LO-FI - do you mean MONO recorders? and hi-fi - stereo>?

cause the guy ive been in contact told me he has a mono set up that has been restored - and asking me if it interests me

------------

also - this may sound stupid - but hey i gotta ask it , if i amable to cut on an xray photo - i am probably able to cut in blank laquered discs?

would the stylus be the same ?

he tells me with one stylus - he can cut roughly 30 - 7 inch - xray photos
would that make less if cutting laquer discs?

now maybe im thinking this because i know prety much next to nothing in this field at the momment - but isnt that a not so great turnout ? 30:1

or is that the way it just is? or could it be a bad choice in stylii

my guess is after i red that book ( TWICE ) - i will probably understand this more

but hey i am a very curious guy that wants to learn everything right away hahaha


-----------------------------------------------

as for newbie forum - i think it would be a TERRIFIC idea

as far as my input goes (as a newbie hah!) heres some things i think could be cool

Terminology - already some have been covered here - and its really helpfull - i am also a visual persone so the way blacknwhite explained some stuff to me was VERY helpful in me understanding as i could create a visual image in my head of how this looked

FAQs - im prety sure the same questions pop up all the time - this is a prety easy one

Literature/educate yourself - again blacknwhite posted some link to some vids and some reads - most definately a must - if you cant take the time to read things and try and learn on yer own, you probably should even be learning this - a section like this would make it easyer to track down info!

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blacknwhite
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Post: # 7542Unread post blacknwhite
Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:10 pm

FOR THE FOLKS NEW TO CUTTING: A message for the sake of all our Professional Cutters & Pressers:

You most definitely will NOT get ANYTHING CLOSE to "professionally acceptable" results of factory-pressed records, from the "beginners" suggestions in my post.

There is NO SUBSTITUTE for professionally-cut-and-pressed records, for sound quality. My suggestions are Strictly Low-Fi.

Here are some examples of what to expect as far as sound quality goes, from the cheaper "home cutters" you can get up & running in the $300-$400 range: MONO, low-fidelity: These are original 1940's - early 50's home recordings: (minus, of course, the scratches - those came with the passage of time)

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP3vdBqu0QA

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3oVEKZjfBE

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoKHAbB8auU

By "low-fi" in my original post, I meant both mono, and very limited freq response, on the order of 100 Hz - 5 kHz, as heard in the above links.

The "next step up" is a mono Presto or Rek-O-Kut - to find one, & get it fully functional, I would guess would put you out something around $600 - $1200 - they are more rare - Here's an example of what the results from these machines sounds like for the late 1940s & early 1950s models: Some of the early-1950s Sun Records releases were cut on a Presto lathe with a 1D cutterhead, if I remember correctly: These setups can go up to about 10 kHz response:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzlGJDuJFYA

Lacquer discs are softer than x-rays, so the cutting stylii should last longer with lacquer blanks. But since the lacquer records are softer, they will wear out faster than x-rasy if played on the older-style heavy pickups of cheaper record players from the 1970's and before. If lacquer discs are played only using modern DJ-style magnetic-cartridge pickups, considering what the starting sound quality is with these old Low-Fi 1940s-50s recorders, you probably wouldn't notice any wear even after repeated plays.

- Bob

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appache
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Post: # 7545Unread post appache
Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:02 pm

hey man those videos are totally rad!

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mossboss
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Blackie

Post: # 7547Unread post mossboss
Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:35 pm

We are now getting to platinum stuff
Great
Another one for "Newbies Start here FIRST" sticky
Hey Steve E
May we please have your Views !!!
Cheers
Chris

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piaptk
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Post: # 19880Unread post piaptk
Thu May 24, 2012 1:41 pm

Newbies should go read the Lathe Trolls Wiki in it's entirety:

http://lathetrolls.pbworks.com

It has a ton of information mostly written (currently) from the perspective of someone who was a newbie just a couple years ago. Avoid the pitfalls and problems that I had.

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annablaze84
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Re: I'm new,need some help(Starting Out-"Newbie Gold")

Post: # 27442Unread post annablaze84
Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:55 pm

Hello just starting out. I'm a musician and wanted to record on a wilcox gay recordette do I have to use the wilcox gay discs or can I use any acetate discs?

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Perisphere
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Re: I'm new,need some help(Starting Out-"Newbie Gold")

Post: # 27469Unread post Perisphere
Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:06 pm

Fresh lacquer discs and new cutting styli will give you better recordings than you'll get on any Wilcox-Gay blanks even if you tried cutting them with new styli.

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recordboy
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Re: I'm new,need some help(Starting Out-"Newbie Gold")

Post: # 27651Unread post recordboy
Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:54 pm

This thread is so helpful!!! :D
Cheers,
recordboy

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Steve E.
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Re: I'm new,need some help(Starting Out-"Newbie Gold")

Post: # 30699Unread post Steve E.
Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:58 am

Some thoughts, based on some themes in recent newbie threads.

1) I think --if you've never worked with a record cutting lathe-- it makes sense to work with a working one before trying to build one from scratch. I'm consistently amazed that people are attempting to reinvent the wheel, or to work more-or-less blind. BUT....that's just me. It does appear that one or two people have successfully built working lathes having never seen one before.

2) You should expect that any old, unmaintained equipment will need an electrical overhaul when you buy it. But....this is the only stuff out there, so buy it anyway. Capacitors will usually need to be replaced, and maybe some resistors, too. Heads will usually need to be re-wound: Magnets will need to be re-magnetized*. If the cutting head is one of the crystal ones found on Recordios, it will need to be replaced. Not many people are doing such replacements anymore.

3) The audio electronics found in the old Recordettes probably never worked too well to begin with, and it appears that they may be impossible to fix. Gib Epling is unwilling to fix them anymore, because they are just too problematic. THAT SAID, I think if you are trying to make your own lathe, PERHAPS you could use the working mechanical guts of one of these gizmos as a starting place....because turntables with a suitable torque are scarce, and these have it. And, they are very portable, and therefore cool. I'd love to know what people can come up with. Just....manage your expectations with this stuff.

*4) Getting back to these magnets. Perhaps this deserves its own thread. There appears to be a recent phenomenon where the 1-C (1C) and 1-D (1D) heads of Prestos are suddenly getting harder to fix. This is the report I'm getting from the guys who fix them, and who have been fixing them for a long time. My hunch is that we've hit an age-hump with these. They were magnetized 60 or 70 years ago, using some super-powerful magnet. It was possible to "recharge" them for a while, but now, enough time has passed that this is just not working anymore. One of these guys told me that he's been looking for access to a much more powerful magnet than he usually uses, because that seems to be required now. I'm no electrical whiz so I can't say for sure that I have this right. It's just my working theory.

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recordboy
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Re: I'm new,need some help(Starting Out-"Newbie Gold")

Post: # 33082Unread post recordboy
Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:54 pm

1) I think --if you've never worked with a record cutting lathe-- it makes sense to work with a working one before trying to build one from scratch. I'm consistently amazed that people are attempting to reinvent the wheel, or to work more-or-less blind. BUT....that's just me. It does appear that one or two people have successfully built working lathes having never seen one before.

2) You should expect that any old, unmaintained equipment will need an electrical overhaul when you buy it. But....this is the only stuff out there, so buy it anyway. Capacitors will usually need to be replaced, and maybe some resistors, too. Heads will usually need to be re-wound: Magnets will need to be re-magnetized*. If the cutting head is one of the crystal ones found on Recordios, it will need to be replaced. Not many people are doing such replacements anymore.

3) The audio electronics found in the old Recordettes probably never worked too well to begin with, and it appears that they may be impossible to fix. Gib Epling is unwilling to fix them anymore, because they are just too problematic. THAT SAID, I think if you are trying to make your own lathe, PERHAPS you could use the working mechanical guts of one of these gizmos as a starting place....because turntables with a suitable torque are scarce, and these have it. And, they are very portable, and therefore cool. I'd love to know what people can come up with. Just....manage your expectations with this stuff.

*4) Getting back to these magnets. Perhaps this deserves its own thread. There appears to be a recent phenomenon where the 1-C (1C) and 1-D (1D) heads of Prestos are suddenly getting harder to fix. This is the report I'm getting from the guys who fix them, and who have been fixing them for a long time. My hunch is that we've hit an age-hump with these. They were magnetized 60 or 70 years ago, using some super-powerful magnet. It was possible to "recharge" them for a while, but now, enough time has passed that this is just not working anymore. One of these guys told me that he's been looking for access to a much more powerful magnet than he usually uses, because that seems to be required now. I'm no electrical whiz so I can't say for sure that I have this right. It's just my working theory.
Steve-

First off, let me say, I plan to 'contribute'? - I'm not rich- so $10-20 is what I can do for now...
This is a WONDERFUL site, and I am honored to be here... (payment next week after I get paid).

Now getting to what you said... I think people home build because really it is sooo much cheaper... If ur savvy you could build one for less than an old wilcox, etc.

My first lathe (bought in 97) was a sears model that never got off the ground and that was lost in a move. I couldn't find one for MANY years after tha, and even gave up for a spell.

I have two and DO intend to use them simply as the lathe table. As i gambled hopping to get fully working models, yet they only turn (which is good enough).
(Seems wilcox's have gone up in price since last year even. about twice as much (guessing the word is out...) I got one (Recordette) for ~$30 and the other (6N) for ~$60 (shipped) in 2013
they seem to up in the ~$200 range now -or asking prices... Soon I'd think you'd be hard pressed to find any even...

*magnets: I wonder why just adding some rare earth mags wouldn't work? Or just electromagnetically charging?
Cheers,
recordboy

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noizeBot
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Re: I'm new,need some help(Starting Out-"Newbie Gold")

Post: # 33823Unread post noizeBot
Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:37 pm

I should have started looking here first.

Lots of direct information in one place. Thank you.

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