Hello,
I'm new to the world of record-cutting, and I was pretty excited to find this forum a couple of weeks ago. Back in the early 1980s I guessed that with the advent of the CD, record-cutting equipment was being scrapped. I always thought record lathes were cool machines, and now regret that I didn't start scouring the countryside for them back then...
To the present-I have prototype machining, CNC programming, and solid modelling in my background, and I would love to know the details of some of the better record lathes like the Scully lathe, especially as it appears to be mostly machined from stock without much, if any, use of castings. I'd be very interested in getting copies of any detailed drawings and I would gladly pay copying costs. Can anyone help either with drawings, or with some idea of where I can locate them?
BTW, I did look first in the "Circuits, schematics and manuals" forum.
Thanks.
George
Are you going to try to build your own custom lathe? That would be a huge undertaking... I would suggest buying some home recorders first to see how they work. A lot of them worked on the same principals and designs.
The larger Scully or Neumann lathes would be tough to copy. There are a number of parts and all have to be machined very precisely. I have the service docs for a Nuemann but it does not contain blueprints or measurements of any of the parts. It have more to do with the circuitry then the physical nature of the lathe.
Without having one, I'm not sure you are really going to get anywhere. I've been looking to buy a Nuemann lathe for a months. Not one for sale... And, they are fairly expensive (20K).
Good luck!
The larger Scully or Neumann lathes would be tough to copy. There are a number of parts and all have to be machined very precisely. I have the service docs for a Nuemann but it does not contain blueprints or measurements of any of the parts. It have more to do with the circuitry then the physical nature of the lathe.
Without having one, I'm not sure you are really going to get anywhere. I've been looking to buy a Nuemann lathe for a months. Not one for sale... And, they are fairly expensive (20K).
Good luck!
Yes, the mechanical part is quite do-able; it's the electronic apparatus that would be more difficult. I designed and built complex injection molds for several years where the largest tolerances were .002", and got smaller from there. I'm sure the best record lathes were built to close tolerances, but that's the world I love. No, without access to a lathe for a few weeks or possession of drawings, I wouldn't get anywhere if I wanted to make an exact copy. I'm more interested in knowing the general principles of construction- of the ways, for example (were they V-ways with adjustable gibs, like an engine lathe, etc?) I'd like to know how resonant frequencies, platter speed fluctuations, and so on were worked out. I guess there's a wealth of information here on this site, and I will be digging for it.
Hi,
I think its quite the opposite. But I guess that depends on your background. The analog signal path for a cutting system is pretty basic. There have been huge advances in computing power and DSP techniques since the designs of the 1970 and 80's. A good deal of the processing can now be done in software. There is room to improve on the methods used for pitch/depth control. If you want to remain old school analog, that is possible as well. There are likely off the shelf solutions that could be used with little or no modification.
On the mechanical side, the accuracy need is very high. Consider the size of smallest details that are cut into a groove wall when the max excursion is limited to a few mils and the dynamic range is over 70db. I'm sure you can get something up and running quicky, but the details will prove very tricky. There are also off the shelf components that could be speicied, but they are typically very costly. In low volumes, its hard to build something that has high precision at low cost.
I very strongly doubt you'll find any blueprints or plans for a recording lathe. Instead, you should focus on a "from the ground up" design using your knowledge of high precision machinery. Perhaps a fresh approach would yield a better design. Perhaps use of some newer materials and modern CAD/CAM methods could result in affordable design.
I've been playing with this stuff for a few years, but would be into colaborating on an open source design of a system. I susupect it wil not come easily or cheaply. I would not be in favor of a copy of an exisitng design.
Mark
I think its quite the opposite. But I guess that depends on your background. The analog signal path for a cutting system is pretty basic. There have been huge advances in computing power and DSP techniques since the designs of the 1970 and 80's. A good deal of the processing can now be done in software. There is room to improve on the methods used for pitch/depth control. If you want to remain old school analog, that is possible as well. There are likely off the shelf solutions that could be used with little or no modification.
On the mechanical side, the accuracy need is very high. Consider the size of smallest details that are cut into a groove wall when the max excursion is limited to a few mils and the dynamic range is over 70db. I'm sure you can get something up and running quicky, but the details will prove very tricky. There are also off the shelf components that could be speicied, but they are typically very costly. In low volumes, its hard to build something that has high precision at low cost.
I very strongly doubt you'll find any blueprints or plans for a recording lathe. Instead, you should focus on a "from the ground up" design using your knowledge of high precision machinery. Perhaps a fresh approach would yield a better design. Perhaps use of some newer materials and modern CAD/CAM methods could result in affordable design.
I've been playing with this stuff for a few years, but would be into colaborating on an open source design of a system. I susupect it wil not come easily or cheaply. I would not be in favor of a copy of an exisitng design.
Mark
Mark,markrob wrote: On the mechanical side, the accuracy need is very high. Consider the size of smallest details that are cut into a groove wall when the max excursion is limited to a few mils and the dynamic range is over 70db.
If you're talking about the cutting head itself, I couldn't agree more. That is not something I would attempt to re-invent. But the mechanism that transports the cutting head, and the platter rotation- that's what I'm interested in. With modern servo motors and control circuits, one could cut any pitch and at any rpm with one leadscrew and 2 motors-at least that's the way I see it.
George
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subkontrabob
- Posts: 284
- Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:40 am
- Location: Helsinki, Finland
@ kino9
I'm working as a mechancial engineer here in oz designing machinery.
would you be able to design this yourself?
I reckon I could design something similar (just the mechanical Part)
But I'm not familiar with servo motors....
BUT we would only need one Motor for the platter.
One servo motor to move the cutting mechanism horizontally and a little one to move the head up and down do I see this right?
Maybe we could start a little Project if someone else is able to do programming and sort out the electrical issues?
What do you thing mate?
I'm working with Inventor and could supply 3d models and 2d drawings.
Ahhh so many ideas...
Cheers
I'm working as a mechancial engineer here in oz designing machinery.
would you be able to design this yourself?
I reckon I could design something similar (just the mechanical Part)
But I'm not familiar with servo motors....
BUT we would only need one Motor for the platter.
One servo motor to move the cutting mechanism horizontally and a little one to move the head up and down do I see this right?
Maybe we could start a little Project if someone else is able to do programming and sort out the electrical issues?
What do you thing mate?
I'm working with Inventor and could supply 3d models and 2d drawings.
Ahhh so many ideas...
Cheers
-
subkontrabob
- Posts: 284
- Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:40 am
- Location: Helsinki, Finland
@fraggle
Some kind of cooperative project would be very interesting. I'm mostly mechanical, too, so enlisting an electronics person would be essential. I think I could design something, yes. I assume you're more familiar with record lathes than I am. I use Solidworks, by the way. I don't know the native file type for Inventor, but there's usually a way to translate files, the only issue being that the history usually doesn't come across in the translation. Yes, I think your servo motors scheme would be correct. I think a synchronous motor is the simplest way to drive the turntable, but then there's the issue of 50hz/60hz. But, that could be a matter of changing a pulley if belt-driven or a wheel if rim-driven, or to use a power supply with a variable frequency output. (expensive, I think) I regret that I threw out a bunch of high-torque synchronous motors some years back.
George
Some kind of cooperative project would be very interesting. I'm mostly mechanical, too, so enlisting an electronics person would be essential. I think I could design something, yes. I assume you're more familiar with record lathes than I am. I use Solidworks, by the way. I don't know the native file type for Inventor, but there's usually a way to translate files, the only issue being that the history usually doesn't come across in the translation. Yes, I think your servo motors scheme would be correct. I think a synchronous motor is the simplest way to drive the turntable, but then there's the issue of 50hz/60hz. But, that could be a matter of changing a pulley if belt-driven or a wheel if rim-driven, or to use a power supply with a variable frequency output. (expensive, I think) I regret that I threw out a bunch of high-torque synchronous motors some years back.
George
It would not be so much more effort to redesign a vms maybe a simplified version but with a proper platter and a strong motor. The platter from a technics is just (shit)it's totally uneven if you measure it. and working with servo motors would be an awesome idea controlled by a software!
There is a reason for why all the professionals use neumann systems to cut lacquer. I guess it's not just the 12" platter. But anyway I'm not a professional either but I know a bit about machinery.
So who in this forum would be able to pick the right motors and make a software to control two motors at the same time?
And get the platter spinning at the right speed?
And you are right you can translate inventor files into solidwork ones.
I will post here again.
@kino9 do you have access to lathes , milling machines & grinding machines?
cheers
There is a reason for why all the professionals use neumann systems to cut lacquer. I guess it's not just the 12" platter. But anyway I'm not a professional either but I know a bit about machinery.
So who in this forum would be able to pick the right motors and make a software to control two motors at the same time?
And get the platter spinning at the right speed?
And you are right you can translate inventor files into solidwork ones.
I will post here again.
@kino9 do you have access to lathes , milling machines & grinding machines?
cheers
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subkontrabob
- Posts: 284
- Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:40 am
- Location: Helsinki, Finland
I wasn't suggesting the use of 1210 platters, that would be ridiculous. I was just wondering if it would be possible to employ the MOTOR PRINCIPLE (magnetic part of the platter immersed in a electromagnet -> platter is a part of the motor).fraggle wrote:The platter from a technics is just (shit)it's totally uneven if you measure it.
EDIT: could the high platter mass be prohibitive for such a design?
cheers,
Bob
@fraggle
Milling machines, lathes, yes. I have an old surface grinder with a 6x18 chuck, with an ok spindle, and no coolant. It's seen better days. I can also do some limited OD grinding on it with a pin grinding attachment.
Question-would the vertical movement of the cutter head need to be controlled by a servo motor, or could it be done just as well manually? Would like to know more about that...
Milling machines, lathes, yes. I have an old surface grinder with a 6x18 chuck, with an ok spindle, and no coolant. It's seen better days. I can also do some limited OD grinding on it with a pin grinding attachment.
Question-would the vertical movement of the cutter head need to be controlled by a servo motor, or could it be done just as well manually? Would like to know more about that...
sub I really do not know but to be honest i reckon it"s not a problem nowadays to get a really strong motor 10 times as strong as the bloddy technics:) I know where souri gets his motors from hehe.
There is just one big manufacturer in south germany and the make loads of motors .I"ll check.
I don"t even think we would need something similar like the technics motor.
There is just one big manufacturer in south germany and the make loads of motors .I"ll check.
I don"t even think we would need something similar like the technics motor.
I think this depends. I have never used a neumann lathe but it looks like you can adjust this manually and automatically.
But the good thing is with servo motors there would be no need to do anything by hand. all the motors could be driven by switches (really slow)
and when your head is in position you could simply hit enter on your computer. My brother is a programmer he is in the states at the moment. he watched your rocket taking off:) are you from america? anyway
i'll ask him how difficult it would be to programm a software.
But I'm really not a professional so it would be really good if somebody of the pro's here could say something to the idea:)
cheers
But the good thing is with servo motors there would be no need to do anything by hand. all the motors could be driven by switches (really slow)
and when your head is in position you could simply hit enter on your computer. My brother is a programmer he is in the states at the moment. he watched your rocket taking off:) are you from america? anyway
i'll ask him how difficult it would be to programm a software.
But I'm really not a professional so it would be really good if somebody of the pro's here could say something to the idea:)
cheers
ok i made something took me all day but at the moment it is just a concept!
hopefully this works here wit photo upload....
http://s841.photobucket.com/albums/zz338/fraggle_79/[/code][/url]
hopefully this works here wit photo upload....
http://s841.photobucket.com/albums/zz338/fraggle_79/[/code][/url]
ok here again http://s841.photobucket.com/albums/zz338/fraggle_79/