Hi All,
I tried to respond earlier, but it did not seem to go through. So I'll try again. Please excuse if this is a duplicate post.
I'd up for doing the hardware and/or software design. I have a small electronics manufacturing company. I can do embedded design and provide CAD PCB layout and board fabrication. However I think we need to answer some basic questions first.
1. Is this the best forum to do a project like this?
2. What are the design goals and specifications of the system?
3. What price point are we targeting?
4. Do we attempt to make quantity purchases of the parts for a group buy and if so, how many would be interested in participating?
Mark
I have been a computer programmer for 11 years. I can write code for Windows, Mac, Linux and IBM mainframes. Additionally, I write assembly language for embedded pic microchips.
I would be happy to collaborate on a pitch controller board. Honestly, I think I could shrink an entire pitch controlling computer into a very small board with maybe one or two chips on it.
It would be nice to have a community created open source lathe design including electronics. Everything but the head should be doable with the right time and effort put into it.
I'd be willing to design, fabricate and test a pitch computer if you are willing to send me a copy of your machined lathe.
Thoughts?
I would be happy to collaborate on a pitch controller board. Honestly, I think I could shrink an entire pitch controlling computer into a very small board with maybe one or two chips on it.
It would be nice to have a community created open source lathe design including electronics. Everything but the head should be doable with the right time and effort put into it.
I'd be willing to design, fabricate and test a pitch computer if you are willing to send me a copy of your machined lathe.
Thoughts?
This sounds very good all up:)
So Who knows the most about lathes?
I guess you guys are all from the states so I assume this project would have be done in american standard? Imperial or can it be metric?
The thing is we might be able to get of the shelf parts..
I reckon the goal would be:
-Lathe design very precise (mechanic)
-suitable Cutting head vinylium or neumann?
-Computer controlled
-also controllable via swichtes to move the the cutting head in position
(verticaly and horizonatlly)
-not tooo heavy & big
-platter as heavy an accurate as possible
-all axis driven by electro motors
-affordable price (without head)
-strong motors (really high torque for platter motor)
-platter speed 33 & 45 rpm?
-usb microscope mounted above platter connected to a computer
-vaccum suction to suck the chip away
I cannot get my head around the bloddy vacuum suction to suck the disc down. Is this really needed or can we somehow fix the disc in the middle and use light to flaten the disc on the platter?
Without the suction it would be a lot easier and cheaper.
So we could split this project.
It could be:
-designing the mechanical part & supplying the drawings
-making the mechanical part
-sorting out the motors + unit to control the speed of the platter
-sorting out the electric wiring + Swichtes
-programming a cutting software (pitch,depth,volume.....)
If a few people would chip in we could build a prototype get it working and duplicate it or sell it and use the money to make copies for us:)
What do you guys think?
Who wants to do what? who is interested? where should it happen?
I probaly forgot lot's of stuff tell me when I'm wrong or if I'm dreaming:)
Once again I'm just familiar with machines In have never cut anything on a Scully or neumann!
Cheers Boris
So Who knows the most about lathes?
I guess you guys are all from the states so I assume this project would have be done in american standard? Imperial or can it be metric?
The thing is we might be able to get of the shelf parts..
I reckon the goal would be:
-Lathe design very precise (mechanic)
-suitable Cutting head vinylium or neumann?
-Computer controlled
-also controllable via swichtes to move the the cutting head in position
(verticaly and horizonatlly)
-not tooo heavy & big
-platter as heavy an accurate as possible
-all axis driven by electro motors
-affordable price (without head)
-strong motors (really high torque for platter motor)
-platter speed 33 & 45 rpm?
-usb microscope mounted above platter connected to a computer
-vaccum suction to suck the chip away
I cannot get my head around the bloddy vacuum suction to suck the disc down. Is this really needed or can we somehow fix the disc in the middle and use light to flaten the disc on the platter?
Without the suction it would be a lot easier and cheaper.
So we could split this project.
It could be:
-designing the mechanical part & supplying the drawings
-making the mechanical part
-sorting out the motors + unit to control the speed of the platter
-sorting out the electric wiring + Swichtes
-programming a cutting software (pitch,depth,volume.....)
If a few people would chip in we could build a prototype get it working and duplicate it or sell it and use the money to make copies for us:)
What do you guys think?
Who wants to do what? who is interested? where should it happen?
I probaly forgot lot's of stuff tell me when I'm wrong or if I'm dreaming:)
Once again I'm just familiar with machines In have never cut anything on a Scully or neumann!
Cheers Boris
-
subkontrabob
- Posts: 284
- Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:40 am
- Location: Helsinki, Finland
suction can make a difference!
yeah! The microscope could be mounted on the opposite side of the cutter head, and also be moved by a motor, so you can constantly monitor the groove. Or you could install it in front of the head (AM31 style) and compensate for the groove drift with a smaller motor.fraggle wrote:-usb microscope mounted above platter connected to a computer
Based on my short cutting experience platter suction can make a difference with warped lacquers. In some cases the irregularities of a disk decrease significantly with suction. I made this experience with Transco lacquers, cut 25 of them last weekfraggle wrote: I cannot get my head around the bloddy vacuum suction to suck the disc down. Is this really needed or can we somehow fix the disc in the middle and use light to flaten the disc on the platter?
Without the suction it would be a lot easier and cheaper.
cheers,
Bob
.
If we would mount thr microscope in front of the cutting head (using a little mounting bracket the we would save money and we wouldn't have to fuck around with building a stand for this and stuff...
So you could always check the grooves you are cutting
So you could always check the grooves you are cutting
-
subkontrabob
- Posts: 284
- Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:40 am
- Location: Helsinki, Finland
Hi fraggle, keep in mind that the groove drifts in relation to the microscope, and eventually the microscope doesn't follow the groove being cut anymore. I added a picture to illustrate the problem:
RED DOT: cutting stylus
BLUE DOT: microscope
It would be awesome to have a compensation for this. Shouldn't be too hard to do
RED DOT: cutting stylus
BLUE DOT: microscope
It would be awesome to have a compensation for this. Shouldn't be too hard to do
inch vs metric: If I'm not mistaken, the US is the last hold-out against the metric system. Should we design in inches but keep the fasteners metric in the interest of universal availability of replacement fasteners?
platter motor: do we use synchronous motor to lock in on mains supply, or other? If we use a synchronous motor, we still need a fine adjustment, unless direct drive. Also, in the states, anyway, the utility is not required to maintain exactly 60hz; I think they just need the number of cycles to come out right in every hour, or something like that. Correct me if I'm wrong.
markrob asked a very fundamental question regarding price point. Probably that needs to be answered first.
platter motor: do we use synchronous motor to lock in on mains supply, or other? If we use a synchronous motor, we still need a fine adjustment, unless direct drive. Also, in the states, anyway, the utility is not required to maintain exactly 60hz; I think they just need the number of cycles to come out right in every hour, or something like that. Correct me if I'm wrong.
markrob asked a very fundamental question regarding price point. Probably that needs to be answered first.
Hi,
I think the talk about motors is very premature. We need to decide if this is really doable first. To that end, we need to develope a working spec.
Who is the intended user of this project? Pro, musician,DJ..etc.?
Is it to be a clone of a VMS or a new conecpt?
Should the design be modularized? This would allow the end user to make cost/performance tradeoffs on the type of motor, head, pitch control, electronics and provide for expansion.
Mark
I think the talk about motors is very premature. We need to decide if this is really doable first. To that end, we need to develope a working spec.
Who is the intended user of this project? Pro, musician,DJ..etc.?
Is it to be a clone of a VMS or a new conecpt?
Should the design be modularized? This would allow the end user to make cost/performance tradeoffs on the type of motor, head, pitch control, electronics and provide for expansion.
Mark
-
subkontrabob
- Posts: 284
- Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:40 am
- Location: Helsinki, Finland
Brilliant, makes a lot of sense!!markrob wrote: Should the design be modularized? This would allow the end user to make cost/performance tradeoffs on the type of motor, head, pitch control, electronics and provide for expansion.
If the design could be built for maybe 2000 - 3000 euros (excluding cutter head and power amps) it might be interesting.markrob wrote: I think the talk about motors is very premature. We need to decide if this is really doable first. To that end, we need to develope a working spec.
Who is the intended user of this project? Pro, musician,DJ..etc.?
Maybe it is more a thing for Pros/sound engineers and DJs and maybe small labels, but I doubt that the average musician would be interested in it.
Maybe a VMS- inspired new concept?markrob wrote: Is it to be a clone of a VMS or a new conecpt?
I also second the suggestion to make the design "open source".
anyway, I can only contribute crazy ideas and suggestions, tell me to shut up if I get on your nerves
Many good points from fraggle and markrob as to establishing the project's intent, and I leave it to them, and other folks, to work out those details. I think it's an exciting project. Here is what I can do: I can develop mechanical concepts, and/or take someone else's concepts and develop them into manufacturable products. I can produce solid models and drawings. I have access to cnc machines and could machine prototypes. I can also source mechanical components- leadscrews, shafting, linear bearings, molded rubber tires, belts, and so on.
Thanks for the comments. That price point makes some sense. Do any of the mechanical guys feel this is a good ballpark figure?subkontrabob wrote:Brilliant, makes a lot of sense!!markrob wrote: Should the design be modularized? This would allow the end user to make cost/performance tradeoffs on the type of motor, head, pitch control, electronics and provide for expansion.
If the design could be built for maybe 2000 - 3000 euros (excluding cutter head and power amps) it might be interesting.markrob wrote: I think the talk about motors is very premature. We need to decide if this is really doable first. To that end, we need to develope a working spec.
Who is the intended user of this project? Pro, musician,DJ..etc.?
Maybe it is more a thing for Pros/sound engineers and DJs and maybe small labels, but I doubt that the average musician would be interested in it.
Maybe a VMS- inspired new concept?markrob wrote: Is it to be a clone of a VMS or a new conecpt?
I also second the suggestion to make the design "open source".
anyway, I can only contribute crazy ideas and suggestions, tell me to shut up if I get on your nerves
My wacky idea is to use an off the shelf mini metal lathe as the basis for the design. They are cheap and readily available internationally. Spare parts are also available. Here is a link to a US based supplier:
http://www.harborfreight.com/7-inch-x-10-inch-precision-mini-lathe-93212.html
Starting with this gives you the basics: a motor controller, leadscrew, half nut, and slide. There is alot that would be stripped off, and some thigs modifed and/or added, but I susupect you could not get this function for anywhere close to the $400 sell price. Its also possible if we have enough people interested, we could contact the manufactuer in China (Sieg) and see if they would sell us a quantity minus the parts we dont need for additiona cost savings.
http://www.siegind.com/
The design effort would then fall to:
1. Modification of leadscrew motor controller (eg. lead-in, lead-in, pitch control).
2. Development of a head mount.
3. Electronic control of half nut engagement.
4. Turntable assembly.
5. System mounting base.
6. Overall cutting system controller.
Any thoughts or comments welcomed.
Mark
.
Hi Mark,
To be honest i do not think that most of the parts used on this little lathe would be accurate enough.
Just think about the guides.
We are talking about a play of 0.01 mm which is 0.0004 Inch.
All tolerances have to be very tight.
Some parts would be usable I guess.
I don't know.....
To be honest i do not think that most of the parts used on this little lathe would be accurate enough.
Just think about the guides.
We are talking about a play of 0.01 mm which is 0.0004 Inch.
All tolerances have to be very tight.
Some parts would be usable I guess.
I don't know.....
Neat idea, but I have doubts that this will work. The first issue I see is pretty much the same as fraggle's point-play between the carriage and the ways. Looking at the carriage, you can see there's a very small footprint on the ways, like a sled with very short runners. The ratio between length of the "sled" and the length of the member supporting the cutting head,which would have to be cantilevered off to the left at least, what 8" or so? would be far from optimum. Far better to have the leadscrew as close to the ways as possible, and a carriage/ways interface which will keep the cutting head on a true course. Any errors caused by the leadscrew so far below the ways are going to be multiplied at the cutting head. I'm willing to bet there's a lot of play in the half-nut/leadscrew assembly on this lathe, and that will be a major problem.
The Trollath MK1
Hey all here
This is a great concept and it seems there is enough people just here to be a durable projrct the point is this How many people would put their hands up for one?
May be you pole it and see response I would have thought 10 units would be a minimum for the effort required
OK
My 2 pennies worth
Platter Car flywheel without ring gear magnetic input speed control feedback arrangement etc already in there made by the millions every auto motor car has one there or on the output shaft
Motor 12-24 Volt DC runs anywhere any voltage non mains dependant provides speed control fixed or variable
ex electric push bike the chinese make them by the 10's of thousands every day got a couple of hp out of them no issue
Imperial v Metric irelevant
model basis VMS, cast iron, low cost, solid no movement, dissanvantage heavy, proven itself for many years minimum machining as per VMS
Alternative extruded alluminium Light but unstable temperature variation related movement Forged be best but not enough qty to justify it
Cast aluminium feasable sand casting needs lots of cleaning
Lead screw? wonder if it is necessary today with stepper motors galore accurate to 8 d points why bother Just ensure accurate slide for the carriage, drive it direct with toothed belt track it via mag strip heaps of cnc controls on lathes milling machines as well as silicon manufacturing gear around, standard stuff in certain industries think inkjet printer as well
Vacuum essential as subbob says again 12-24 V dc ex motor car
Flex pipe through the center spindle of platter heavy accurate bearing a la neumann
Thoughts on Head suspension are required My thoughts VMS type with rotary electromagnet as well as a dash pot
electronics? argh, there is enough input already right here
By the way All low cost cutters rely on the carriage to be mounted on two points centre as well as the swinging pivot point on the t/t
That takes care of any movement as well as that it provides the required strength to resist movement while cutting a la presto vestax vinylrecorder etc etc etc
VMS and Scully with the open structure need the strength via heavy metal castings
More thoughts as they come up
Great idea however someone has to filter the input so as to make it clear So who is up for the task on the prelim specs?
Cheers
This is a great concept and it seems there is enough people just here to be a durable projrct the point is this How many people would put their hands up for one?
May be you pole it and see response I would have thought 10 units would be a minimum for the effort required
OK
My 2 pennies worth
Platter Car flywheel without ring gear magnetic input speed control feedback arrangement etc already in there made by the millions every auto motor car has one there or on the output shaft
Motor 12-24 Volt DC runs anywhere any voltage non mains dependant provides speed control fixed or variable
ex electric push bike the chinese make them by the 10's of thousands every day got a couple of hp out of them no issue
Imperial v Metric irelevant
model basis VMS, cast iron, low cost, solid no movement, dissanvantage heavy, proven itself for many years minimum machining as per VMS
Alternative extruded alluminium Light but unstable temperature variation related movement Forged be best but not enough qty to justify it
Cast aluminium feasable sand casting needs lots of cleaning
Lead screw? wonder if it is necessary today with stepper motors galore accurate to 8 d points why bother Just ensure accurate slide for the carriage, drive it direct with toothed belt track it via mag strip heaps of cnc controls on lathes milling machines as well as silicon manufacturing gear around, standard stuff in certain industries think inkjet printer as well
Vacuum essential as subbob says again 12-24 V dc ex motor car
Flex pipe through the center spindle of platter heavy accurate bearing a la neumann
Thoughts on Head suspension are required My thoughts VMS type with rotary electromagnet as well as a dash pot
electronics? argh, there is enough input already right here
By the way All low cost cutters rely on the carriage to be mounted on two points centre as well as the swinging pivot point on the t/t
That takes care of any movement as well as that it provides the required strength to resist movement while cutting a la presto vestax vinylrecorder etc etc etc
VMS and Scully with the open structure need the strength via heavy metal castings
More thoughts as they come up
Great idea however someone has to filter the input so as to make it clear So who is up for the task on the prelim specs?
Cheers
Chris
.
Hey guys i found something.
http://www.linearsysteme.skf.de//home.aspx?lang=en&cou=8
they have a large variety of Guiding systems.
Really precise and it's off the self already made!
@ mossboss you are right with stepper motor and tooth belt but i reckon this is getting a bit too complicated to be honest. it's definitely duable but why not using something like this already made we just have to mount a motor.
http://www.linearsysteme.skf.de/en/8/fam-cat1414-.html
two of them could be the movement horizontally and vertically.
They can probably tell us where to get the right motors too.
I reckon the design from a vms 80 with those guides would be awesome.
No idea how expensive they are..
A platter would be machined in no time exactly how you want it.
But anyway we could also go for off the self parts.
Mossboss could you please tell me exactly how the suction works on your lathe?
cheers
http://www.linearsysteme.skf.de//home.aspx?lang=en&cou=8
they have a large variety of Guiding systems.
Really precise and it's off the self already made!
@ mossboss you are right with stepper motor and tooth belt but i reckon this is getting a bit too complicated to be honest. it's definitely duable but why not using something like this already made we just have to mount a motor.
http://www.linearsysteme.skf.de/en/8/fam-cat1414-.html
two of them could be the movement horizontally and vertically.
They can probably tell us where to get the right motors too.
I reckon the design from a vms 80 with those guides would be awesome.
No idea how expensive they are..
A platter would be machined in no time exactly how you want it.
But anyway we could also go for off the self parts.
Mossboss could you please tell me exactly how the suction works on your lathe?
cheers
Hi,
Automotive flywheel-will the speed cpntrol work at <100 rpm? Do you need so heavy?
Aluminum investment castings great idea for high volume, tooling prohibitively expensive for low volume (100's units). Yes, higher coeff thermal expansion than steel, but insignificant effect @ +/- 20°C or so.
I think leadscrew the way to go; I think toothed belt w/ stepper is going to result in imaging on the recording from the belt and possibly the stepper.
Scully-type can be done without castings.
SKF, yes, I think this is on the right track- 2 linear bearings with ballscrew. ballscrew= no backlash and practically no lead error. If the ball screws creates rumble, go to preloaded plastic, something like this:
http://www.connectingindustry.com/story_attachment.asp?storycode=192398&seq=1&type=P&c=1
Automotive flywheel-will the speed cpntrol work at <100 rpm? Do you need so heavy?
Aluminum investment castings great idea for high volume, tooling prohibitively expensive for low volume (100's units). Yes, higher coeff thermal expansion than steel, but insignificant effect @ +/- 20°C or so.
I think leadscrew the way to go; I think toothed belt w/ stepper is going to result in imaging on the recording from the belt and possibly the stepper.
Scully-type can be done without castings.
SKF, yes, I think this is on the right track- 2 linear bearings with ballscrew. ballscrew= no backlash and practically no lead error. If the ball screws creates rumble, go to preloaded plastic, something like this:
http://www.connectingindustry.com/story_attachment.asp?storycode=192398&seq=1&type=P&c=1
just send an email with drawing to skf and i'm waiting for a price.
I asked for 2 motor driven units (inkl everything)
and one extra motor for the platter.
this would be awesome if not too expensive because we hoock it up and it will work:)
check this out
http://www.linearsysteme.skf.de/en/8/datasheet-pid282990cat1413--.html
I asked for 2 motor driven units (inkl everything)
and one extra motor for the platter.
this would be awesome if not too expensive because we hoock it up and it will work:)
check this out
http://www.linearsysteme.skf.de/en/8/datasheet-pid282990cat1413--.html
Vacuum
Hey Boris
Jump on a train come around have a look door is open man You are 15 miles up the road Mark rob can not do this neither can Kino or some others Ha Ha
By the way You want to be sitting down when the price comes through from SKF You would not be wanting to injure yourself from the fall to the ground by the shock would you?
By the way I have been through this exsersise It seems that they have around 10 price breaks with manufacturers of gear using their components getting up to 90% of list price and one off's at full cope Scary stuff
Time will tell I am sure when the price comes through
Cheers
Jump on a train come around have a look door is open man You are 15 miles up the road Mark rob can not do this neither can Kino or some others Ha Ha
By the way You want to be sitting down when the price comes through from SKF You would not be wanting to injure yourself from the fall to the ground by the shock would you?
By the way I have been through this exsersise It seems that they have around 10 price breaks with manufacturers of gear using their components getting up to 90% of list price and one off's at full cope Scary stuff
Time will tell I am sure when the price comes through
Cheers
Chris