Lacquer formulae II

[selectavision]

Hi folks!
Looking for more information about my Motosacoche, I came across this topology guide from RTS (Swiss radio). This publication contains valuable information on the lifetime and chemical composition / decomposition of lacquers. Audio restauration aspects and techniques are also discussed. Moreover some recipes and spectrometric readings from different lacqer types / manufacturers are also shown. I think, highly interesting and an excellently researched publication! Enjoy!

https://kennisbank.avanet.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Typology_guide_RTS_lacquer_discs.pdf


B.R.
Martin

[symatic]

amazing stuff, thank you!

[grooveguy]

Wow, that's a find, thanks for posting! We've got to find a replacement for lacquer blanks, but DIYing them seems like an invitation to oblivion... either fire, explosion or poisoning. With the range of plastic sheeting available nowadays, it would seem possible to find some material that can be cut, embossed or melted with a conventional or redesigned stylus that would work as well, but so far you can't beat a good lacquer blank.

[selectavision]

In my opinion, the core problem with lacqer blancs will not be solved in the near future - if only 1 or 2 manufacturers remain who will sooner or later will have to withdraw from the market as well due to economic and environmetal considerations. After that nobody else would take the risk of founding a new production facility for an environmentally problematic product. At the latest when the "vinyl bubble" bursts, this is the end of it.
Another thing is alternative techniques. Teldec with the DMM has shown an alternative - a technique that has not been scientifically analyzed or further developed to any significant extent to date. (Interesting that the "dryout" also occurs with a copper master, here due to recrystallization, makes the expensive copper master usable only within a fex weeks). IMHO at the moment in the region of low cost production it makes sense to get back to the topic of recording waxes: Relatively simple production of the compound, the only major problem here is air inclusions, which prevent making the master"cake" conductive homogeneous and even without pores by means of vacuum sputtering. Degassing the liquid wax compound under vacuum before cooling / solidifying maybe a way out (cheap china-vacuum devices or diy - see youtube). But as a medium for the actual cut, it is actually a soft but ideal material, esp. in terms of hight frequency reproduction. The main disadvantage is the poor handling of a wax pancake of 1 1/2 inches thickness and its sensitivity to improper storage / transport esp. at higher temperatures. So it is not really processable with current electroplating techniques - they have "forgotten" how to handle such things. Advantages: extremely inexpensive: if the cut fails, just put it on the wax shaver and the master is ready for a new attempt. I once asked the victrolaguy (who did a lot or R&D on recording waxes) about something like that - didn't seem interesting enough for him... victrolaguy- no offense! Modern plastics maybe a way out - at the moment such ist not the case: conductive PC is technically possible, but the industry has no interest in developing due to poor outlets...

B.R.
Martin

[dmills]

You could probably sputter onto a wax target, and IIRC some of the early work at bell labs did just that.

I wonder about some of the UV crosslinked photopolymers.
Cook it under a UV source until it acquires the required surface properties, cut, then cook it a load more to make it hard.

Rather nasty chemistry of course, but what organic chemistry isn't?

[selectavision]

Hi,
sounds good! Main thing is about getting a proper and smooth (polished) surface on those polymers - so the demand of proper and flawless coating of a carrier substrate - be it aluminum or glass- gives us the same problems as in the production of traditional lacqers. Sputtering on wax targets was abandoned in the years after shellack after they found the problem with micro-pores in the wax master itself was an issue. The shellack aera had no problems with that because the surface noise of the disks made from shellack-compounds masked that of the wax masters. Sputtering worked well, but the waxes didn´t, so waxes appeared as not suitable for vinylite usage with their demand for better signal to noise ratio. Degassing of the waxes occured in the vacuum chamber right during the sputtering process and caused uneven surfaces. So in the end waxes gave way to the than easyer to handle nitrocellulose or acetate masters. The point is to have a low cost method for masters without dust inclusions and with a flawless surface, which can be produced inexpensively and with reproducible quality, even on a small scale, with minimal effort and reliable results. In other words the task is now to develop a cheap but relieable material which can be easyly frankensteined in one´s own workshop brewery. I´ll check for the UV polymers, thanks for the hint!!!

Martin

[MJS Mabella]

Just like to contribute this

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/77/74/dc/93b6d5e87fd058/EP0050704B1.pdf

….. from the manufacturing point of view, there is a reason why the machines that apply the laquer onto the carrier disc are one key to obtain great and constant production quality. In my line of work I am so shocked at how we let go of production knowledge and machines. And I agree that the DIY route here could get a bit unhealthy.

This patent was an inspiration to me during a lockdown “ what if “ dreaming session last year.
The what if, meaning, winning the lottery and building production places for necessary things

Martina

PS
Some cellar with an abandoned extruder machine anywhere ?!?
…. Any of these companies here we could become friends with and they just put a crazy project up and
Convert an existing machine to make our laquers :

https://www.extrusion-info.com/upload/magazines/extrusion/3-2021/files/assets/common/downloads/Extrusion%203-2021.pdf

[selectavision]

Hi Martina,
Extruders are rarely found in cellars and just as rarely used - mostly not affordable even then. For the first experiments on a laboratory scale, simply build it yourself, see the diy links on youtube. Isn't rocket science...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2W2TWR4ucA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Js1Su59XQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRQKmRvfZMI

Bio-plastics are worth a look in terms of sustainability and are currently hardly researched with regard to their suitability for masters. Here is a rough overview of different types. Maybe not just for dreaming, but for experimenting at a reasonable price:
http://findingsustainia.org/bioplastik2/

Another recommended thread: https://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9473

Kind regards,
Martin

[SueDenim]

I originally posted this research document in the Reference section, back in mid-2020
https://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8777

I posted it around the time of original publication and came across it during my work with The British Library 'Save Our Sounds' project.

[selectavision]

Hello SueDenim, there it is again: different members, different sources, but the same finds / content. Didn't see your post then. The main thing imho is to keep those informations "viral" and accessible to everyone!
Many thanks!

[SueDenim]

Absolutely - couldn't agree more!
Was simply pointing out that there was another forum thread if people wanted to read some additional info.

Thanks for keeping it going...