Rev 2 of my DIY Stereo Cutterhead

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markrob
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Rev 2 of my DIY Stereo Cutterhead

Post: # 17808Unread post markrob
Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:55 pm

Hi,

I thought I'd give an update on my DIY cutterhead experiments. I took a fresh look at my original design and made some major changes. I decided to mount the head on my 6N rather than my DIY lathe. So I spent a fair amount of time coming up with a decent mount. I had to remove all of the standard 6N hardware and roll my own. The goal was to make sure the stylus tracked to the center of the record. I also wanted to make it easy to adjust the height. Finally, I did not want to do any mod to the 6N that could not be easily restored.

Image

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Previously, I coupled the drivers to the stylus holder via short lengths of wire. I did some modeling and found this was creating a secondary compliance that tends to produce an unwanted resonance. So, in this pass I am coupling the driver cones directly to the stylus holder.

Image

I also went to greater lengths to reduce mass. The cones are now paper rather than copper. I added stiffnes by dipping in lacquer several times. My stylus mount is re-designed for lower mass and I'm now using a taper mounted stylus. To increase sensitivity, I changed the torque bar from a steel screw to nylon (reduced compliance). So, with the reduced mass and compliance of the torque bar, my system resonance is now in the 850hz range. Not up to the Neumann standards, but still respectable. My total moving mass is a bit over 1.5 grams. I made some response measurements on the bench using a Kaman Eddy current position sensor I got cheaply from eBay. You can see the results below.

Image

This is showing displacement vs. frequency, so its flat up to the system resonance and then falls off at -12db/oct. I added a dashot for damping and a simple lift using fishing line. If you convert the displacement response to velocity (ds/dt), you get the typical open loop moving coil head response that looks like an inverted V.

Image

I did some test cuts using white noise and then developed a correction filter using the Adobe Audition FFT filter and Har-Bal. My first test cut using program material is here:

http://home.comcast.net/~markrob1066/docs/BC_playback.wav

The cut is about -8db below the level recorded on the vinyl release on ABC records (Steely Dan Black Cow). My cut was bandlimted to about 12Khz to reduce the amount of power used. It was cut with a 60 Watt per channel Dynaco 120 and it used all of the voltage swing available (+/- 35 Volts). The noise is due to the lower cutting level and I did not optimise the heater current. You can hear some breakup in a couple of spots. This was in my source. I had to do some extreme EQ to correct for both the RIAA and the open loop head response (nearly +40db at 12Khz!). Someplace in the process, I must have caused some clipping to occur.

Overall, its a good start. I need to drive with a higher powered amp (I have a Phase Linear 400 set to go). Also need to work on the signal processing to make sure its clean. I did some bench experiments with ferrofluid to see if I can improve the driver power handling. I got great results and plan to try adding the fluid to the drivers. I'd be glad to answer any questions.

Mark

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Perisphere
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Post: # 17809Unread post Perisphere
Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:26 pm

The only studio lathe/stereo cutter rig I've ever seen used a Haeco-modified Crown DC 300 amp to drive its modified Westrex 3D head....that might be an amp to look into as well.

Good luck with your set-up though!

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flozki
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Post: # 17810Unread post flozki
Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:56 am

wow.great you go on with your head.
sounds is fantastic for such a head. .
i also like the paper speaker cones..
and pictures from the bottom of the head would help people to understand.

when i did low cost heads years ago i made also tests with ferrofluid drivers.
the good thing is that the main resonance is damped quite a bit.
without ferrofluid you have to dip out main res. quite heavy...

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markrob
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Post: # 17817Unread post markrob
Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:55 am

flozki wrote:wow.great you go on with your head.
sounds is fantastic for such a head. .
i also like the paper speaker cones..
and pictures from the bottom of the head would help people to understand.

when i did low cost heads years ago i made also tests with ferrofluid drivers.
the good thing is that the main resonance is damped quite a bit.
without ferrofluid you have to dip out main res. quite heavy...
Hi Flo,

Thanks for the kind words. Here is a shot of the underside of the head:

Image

I measured the voice coil temp of the CUI driver I used both with and without ferrofluid in the gap. With about 4 watts into the driver, I measured 103 C without ferrofluid and 55 C with. That's a big gain. I think I could get a bit more thermal efficiency by adding some finned heat sinks to the backs of the drivers. Once I get things a bit more optimised, I want to give those two options a try.

I have an idea to try and add feedback by using the driver back emf in a bridge confiuration. Have you ever tried this or know of any feedback system done this way?

Mark

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emidisc
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diy head

Post: # 17818Unread post emidisc
Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:16 am

Mark
great to see you are back on the diy cutter it looks and sounds brilliant
I feel inspired to return to my previous attempts of the same......

emidisc

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piaptk
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Post: # 17820Unread post piaptk
Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:27 pm

How do you hold the needle in? Is that one of your homemade needles?

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markrob
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Post: # 17821Unread post markrob
Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:56 pm

Hi,

I'm using a tapered shank stylus. Just press fit into a drilled hole. I didn't even bother to try and match the taper when I drilled. Some time ago I picked up a bunch of these styli on ebay from a seller in Australia. They are all in original Capps envelopes and date from the 1950's. Some Microgroove others 78. Also some weird experimental stylii with 60 degree included angle (not sure whatr these were for). From the documents in the lot, I see the were originally shipped to an RCA R&D lab in Indianapolis. I don't know what head they were designed for (my guess is an older style Westrex). But, I decied to use them sice they are very short and lightweight. They are similar to the Neumann style. If interested, I can try ans shoot a picture of one.

Mark

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emidisc
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diy

Post: # 17840Unread post emidisc
Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:53 am

Mark
I am interested to see the the stylus you refer to,
The more i think about it I feel steel stylus could be the way forward especially if working on a budget but mainly because in theory they should be easier and cheeper to re sharpen,
and I still feel they could be done with a relatively simple set up.
I would like to see how steel stylus were manufactured back in the day
if anyone has this info ??
I think the lightweight approach to the head is better - my diy cutter weighs a far too much!

emidisc

andybee
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Post: # 17842Unread post andybee
Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:42 am

yes! nice work!
I think souri dit it the same way, years ago...

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markrob
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Re: diy

Post: # 17843Unread post markrob
Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:48 pm

emidisc wrote:Mark
I am interested to see the the stylus you refer to,
The more i think about it I feel steel stylus could be the way forward especially if working on a budget but mainly because in theory they should be easier and cheeper to re sharpen,
and I still feel they could be done with a relatively simple set up.
I would like to see how steel stylus were manufactured back in the day
if anyone has this info ??
I think the lightweight approach to the head is better - my diy cutter weighs a far too much!

emidisc
Hi,

See the photo below. Its a bit difficult to capture with my camera and my microscope camera is too high mag, but you should be able to get the idea. Maybe somebody can ID it.

I agree that down, the road, home made high speed steel is the way to go. I had some good sucess back when I was working with the drill blanks. For lacquer, its no problem. For harder material, more work needs to be done.

Image

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blacknwhite
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Post: # 17999Unread post blacknwhite
Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:35 pm

Markrob, That's some masterful R&D, and incredible-sounding results... thanks for sharing!

- Bob

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RyaNZ
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Cutter head drivers

Post: # 21309Unread post RyaNZ
Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:39 am

Hi Mark

I'm working on 3d printing my own DIY lightweight cutter head at the moment, for a lathe I'm building. This is my first attempt and your images here have been very helpful for understanding how the cutter head works. I've heard a diamond tip stylus is needed to lathe cut polycarbonate (Lexan) blanks, wondering if you know of any cheaper alternatives?

Also, what should I be looking for in terms of speakers/drivers for the cutter head? I havn't been able to find any info on what I need here, can any old speaker work? I assume something with a larger frequency range is best, but any light you can shed here would be great! Where did you source yours from? Hopefully I can find something similar online or in New Zealand.

Thanks!
Ryan

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chaosbc
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Post: # 21310Unread post chaosbc
Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:24 am

Hi there,
I don't want to be rude answering instead of Markrob but since he actually helped me a lot when I had the same questions and it's my break time at work...
Markrob advised me these drivers P/N CMS0401KL-3X

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?lang=en&site=us&KeyWords=CMS0401KL-3X

According to what I got, Markrob uses sharpened steel instead of diamond (cheaper and easier to get). From what I heard from his sound sample, this is excellent.

just in case if it can help, I am working on my own lathe (almost completed) and I made my cutterhead holder in 3D. You can download it from Thingiverse website : http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:31460

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markrob
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Post: # 21313Unread post markrob
Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:36 am

Hi,

I'll be interested to see how you do with the 3D printing.

The current gen of my head is using saphire styli. I was able to purchase a lot of small shank, tapered units (see my earlier post above). For Lexan and the like, you will probably want to start off with saphire from an established source. Once you get up to speed, you can try to lap your own steel syli, but it does take some doing. I'd also reccomend using lacquer to start as this is easy to get good results with. Once you have a benchmark using lacquer/saphire, you can go from there.

While any speaker would probably work; size, weight, power handling, moving mass, ease of coupling, and force constant are key points to consider. As far as stated frequency repsonse goes, that is not relevant. That spec is the acoustical response in air. You will be directly coupling to a moving stylus, so the entire physical system changes. When you include the required RIAA EQ into the process, you will find that you need a great deal of EQ anmd power reserve to cut a usable recording. This is so even without taking into account any deviations from the theoretical open loop response curve of a moving coil cutter.

The bottom line is that you can easly get something that works, but you will need to really dive into the details if you want to acheive anything close to a Hi-Fi result.

Mark

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chaosbc
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Post: # 21324Unread post chaosbc
Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:25 pm

Always good to have those precisions...thank you for that Markrob.
About 3d printing, well this is one more crazy project I will end to dive in but so far I only spend spare time doing some parts with some 3D modelization softwares (Blender or OpenScad). Basically the idea is you generate a .stl file with Blender and the 3D printer will be able to create it for real after several pass of the head depositing hot plastic drops on a heating plate. You will probably find more understandable informations than my lousy explanations :wink: on Reprap official website. Everything is open-source and there is a big community of users who (like here) help each others..=> http://reprap.org/wiki/RepRap/fr
Last edited by chaosbc on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Angus McCarthy
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Post: # 21331Unread post Angus McCarthy
Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:40 pm

I hadn't caught this thread before. Great setup with the modified carriage, Mark.

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RyaNZ
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Post: # 21437Unread post RyaNZ
Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:17 am

Thanks for the replies and helpful information markrob and chaosbc! I'll be sure to post pictures of my 3d printing progress. I think it will be a suitable method of fabrication as it can be lightweight and designed to be very stiff.

I have found a supplier for suitably sized speakers here in NZ, I'm wondering which of these two the forum thinks will be best? I have the option of a full range woofer or a tweeter. they have similar power, the woofer appears to have larger more powerful magnet while the tweeters have a more restricted frequency range (I know you said that this spec is for movement in air markrob).

http://www.hasaudio.co.nz/treated-paper-cone-tweeter-p-931.html
http://www.hasaudio.co.nz/peerless-830970-full-range-woofer-p-671.html

Also markrob, how have you attached your paper speaker cones to the stylus mount? It appears they are just glued from your pictures?

Thanks

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markrob
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Post: # 21438Unread post markrob
Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:20 am

Hi,

Both of these speaker choices seem on the large size. Might be hard to get them positioned and mounted in the space required. You should also test or find the total moving mass of the speaker. I suspect its well above 1g. This might negate the better power handling of these drivers as you'll need to use it up to accelerate the extra mass.

You are correct, the paper cones were glued to the stylus holder with Duco cement.

Mark

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dmz007
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Post: # 21439Unread post dmz007
Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:26 am

Hi Ryan? What part of NZ are you from? Im in the early conceptual design stage for a stereo vinyl cutter and it would be cool to have some contacts who are doing the same thing. Its pretty difficult to get parts in NZ so maybe we could order 2 of the same part from overseas and split shipping?

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RyaNZ
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Post: # 21924Unread post RyaNZ
Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:26 pm

Hi mate, sorry for the delayed reply. I'm based in Wellington, where abouts are you? I've completed a rough design now, however am still working on the cutter head and fine-tuning the actual working parts of the design. I woud be keen to share shipping of speaker parts if you still need any? My email address is geelsryan@gmail.com
Ryan

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