First Test of My DIY Record Press

[markrob]

Hey Mark
Here is another one for you
If you get a coil of 1/2" copper and rewind it as close as you can and stick it behind your flat plate with another flat plate on top like a sandwich Run your garden hose through it you will get fairly rapid cooling
Now for an improvement fill the gaps in the copper coil with heat transfer compound obtained from a commercial refrigerator manufacturer as used in freezer boxes and pour a bit of plastic steel around the perimeter so as to seal it in and stick a few bolts so as to keep it all together
Than your cooling would get down to acceptable levels
Flexi discs Not with your setup as it is unless you use Mylar the normal pvc sheet will just roll up like crispy bacon Mylar would cost you around $1 per sheet pricey but it will make a flexi
Archive suppliers will be happy to supply you a few sheets
Keep at it
Cheers
Cheers

Hi,

Thanks for the suggestion. I like that idea as well. Should be much better than dumping into a tub of water. I would build a separate cooling station so that I can keep the plattens at temperature. I don't want to waste any heating energy. In fact, the Cook patent describes the process in this way. Since the finished record will be in the removable book, I'll transfer it from the press to the cooling station and then turn on the cooling water with a valve. I plan to concentrate on the press design, I'll probably do the tub cooling to start. Once I get the press running well, I'll start working on a cooling station.

Mark

[mossboss]

Mark
Let me know if you want some bits and pieces to help you along
They will be used and useless for us in a commercial setup but fine for you
I am thinking a couple of center bushes and pins as well as a few old stampers for you to root around with
At least you would be able to hold the whole contraption together and get closer to real
Besides it would help you with your next step in making the "moulds"
Now local beer and a few hot dogs in exchange OK?
Pm me with addy and all that stuff
Keep at it
Cheers

[blacknwhite]

I would build a separate cooling station so that I can keep the plattens at temperature. I don't want to waste any heating energy.

Mark,

FASCINATING results, man!

OK. Here are some cards I'd been sort of holding close to my chest until I could try experimenting with it some, but it seems less and less likely that I'll ever "get around to it".

I made a drawing of an idea I had, about a year ago, for pressing 7-inch 45's, using a 20-ton shop press which you can get for about US $500, 120v or 240v electric heating, and water cooling. It would use a 20-ton shop press similar to this:



Here's the drawing:



Like you mentioned, the big problem in my mind when I drew this, was the waste in heating and cooling the same platens - the loss of energy, and time, between cycles.

So I wanted to try, as you mentioned, separate sets of platens: One for heating, one for cooling - for use on the same press, moving side-to-side between the heating & cooling stages, for a "double-stamp" on each record.

With a bit of imagination, some mechanical rigging could be welded together to allow for a stationary press, which has 2 sets of platens which can travel linearly, left and right. Slide the platen assembly to the right, for example, and the electrically-heated "hot" platens are in the pathway of the 20-ton press; slide the platen assembly to the left, and the "cold" platens (water-cooled) are in the pathway of the press. These could be book-type platens, with a 1/2-inch gap between them when in the "closed" position, BUT they probably souldn't be hinged together directly at the edge; they should probably be welded to arms connected to the hinge (say, 1-foot-long arms), so they would close more evenly.

Then, you would have another INNER book-type assembly of two 1/4"-thick (or perhaps 3/8" thick?) solid copper plates, with a cavity matching the profile of one "side" of a 45 rpm disc lathed into the faces of both copper blocks, allowing for the thickness of the stamper. The copper block molds could then be drilled for machine screws to hold a stamper-retainer-ring in place at the outer edge of the stamper, like the old record-press patent diagrams dating back to the 1920's. The biscuit would go in between the copper molds. Again, these molds would need a long hinge, for more even closing. They could be made like a giant set of spring-loaded Barbecue Grill Tongs. They would need to have slight "thumbs" on the four corners of the face of one copper mold block, and corresponding "pits" on the face of the other copper mold block, so they'd be keyed to meet evenly.

Steps:

1. Heating/cooling runs pretty much continually (could "tweak" this some to minimize energy use).

2. With press OPEN, Slide dual-platen-assembly to the RIGHT (as pictured), so that the HOT platens are in position.

3. With the stampers mounted in the "Copper Mold Tongs", load a hot biscuit of PVC between the stampers. (I'd actually planned on buying a small industrial heated Vented extruder for this part, similar to what clay potters use... My cousin is really into pottery, and has sources... then slightly pre-heating piles of beads of PVC in muffin tins in a counter-top toaster-oven (but not hot enough to start singe-ing / smoking), and then running them through the heated vented extruder to further heat them, and remove major air pockets).

4. Manually hold the "copper-mold-tongs" with the hot biscuit in-between the HOT platens, and close the press tight as it'll go, waiting for it to totally stop moving. Crucial - this is the part I figured would be most prone to failure: Everyone says you need way more than 20 tons. Would it work with the current industry-standard PVC record mixture? If not, since you're already mixing up your PVC beads through an extruder, would you need to experiment with mixing in beads of SOFTER pvc mix, with more softeners / plasticizers, to make a "softer" record, to get it to "fill" better with only 20 tons? No idea... (I hate styrene so much, I wasn't even considering that at the time)

5. Open the press fully, but keep the now-hot "copper-mold-tongs" tightly gripped closed. Move the platen assembly to the LEFT (as pictured), to put the COLD platens in place. Position the still-closed tongs between the cold platens, and close the press, and wait for however long you figure it takes to sufficiently cool.

6. Open press, and you may or may not have a playable 45...

Looks at this point like I'll never have the time to try such a device; maybe you or someone else can get some ideas from it.

Don't anyone burn the house down.

Thanks Markrob for sharing your adventures!,

- Bob

[markrob]

Hi Bob,

Sounds like we are working on the same kinds of things. The nice feature of the Cook method is the ablitity to work at very low pressures. The two platen idea could work. I'm shooting for something simpler by going with 2 seperate stations. Once I really prove out the general process, there is lots of room to automate and expand on the design. I'm looking for the easiest and low cost menas to an end.

Mark

[Aussie0zborn]

Just found this in an interview with Burgess MacNeal, owner of Sontec/ITI:

"BM: We were so busy trying to find customers and get the new recording studio going that we didn’t watch out for our business very well. Then one day we discovered that if we were in business six more months we’d be out of business because we were losing money. We had a quick meeting, and decided, ‘well, we could make pressings of the recordings we were doing’. We weren’t too bright you see; we didn’t know this would be very difficult! So, without knowing just how difficult, we borrowed money from a bank and bought what was probably the only mono fusion press ever made by Mr Gerry Mentor – one of the founding members of the AES.

It was an intriguing process, where you took a round disc of plastic, and a back sheet of microscopic granules of pure vinyl; put them into this mould with the two labels; and closed the thing in what was called the ‘hot press’. When you took it out again you had a record. They were very good machines, because the vinyl was really hard, so the high-end was really great compared to commercial records where the plastic was softer in order to mould it faster. But we soon outstripped the capacity of that machine and decided to buy ‘real’ presses.

Unfortunately, steam presses drive you up the wall, so we moved the pressing plant to downtown Baltimore four blocks from ‘District Steam’, which supplied high-pressure steam services to a lot of the buildings. We found a location in the basement of a large building, set up two presses there and ran ourselves a pressing plant business! But before that we had to start cutting. We had probably the second Neumann lathe in the US – a manual lathe, not an automated one. There we did cutting, we sent the plating out, we sent out the manufacturing of the labels, and we made records, and we made money… all of which supported the studio until it could eventually stand on its own two feet.

Full interview here : http://euphonicmasters.com/misc/BURGESS.pdf

[andybee]

nice idea, but won´t work easy.
the thing is, first you have to heat, to get the pvc soft to get
a good sounding records.
If the pvc is hot, pressure must be hold stable!
At this stage, you must move out the hot plate and move in the
cold plate.... not easy, with 20-50tons of pressure.

maybe heating and cooling oil can do the job, but I think much slower
then steam.... so... there will be a lot of work to do, to design a
new record press with low pressures....
good luck!

[markrob]

Hi Andy,

The pressures needed are much less than 10-20 tons. This process can and did work back in the 1950's and 60's. Emory Cook produced records using this process.

If you want a copy of the patent, PM me with your email and I'll send you a copy. The heating and cooling were done in seperate stations. A removable book was used to hold the stampers and the powdered vinyl. The powder was loaded and the book closed. It was then placed on a heated press. Electrical heaters were used because they do not have to ramp to temperature. Onced pressed, the book is transfered to a cooling station that used circulating water. By using powedered vinyl, you only need pressures in the range of 100psi.

Mark

[mossboss]

Yes indeed it does work and you do not need a lot of pressure
OK here is something else for those interested in this process
Philips had an all electric pair of molds that where mounted in line on a round spindle on one of the columns of a two post press
They run at 24-32 V ac
There was two sets of stampers with the same or different titles
They heated up one of the molds/stampers while it was on the pressing side for whatever time it took to do the job
When the press opened it was rotated 180 degrees which placed the first set of molds in the cooling station and bought the other set into the heating pressing station and so on and on
I met an elderly gentleman in Italy that worked in the experimental department at Philips in Holland that described it to me
Apparentlyaccording to him they where trying to get around the patent
He also told me that they than made a 3 set and a six set setup that worked as fast if not much faster than their very good steam heated presses
The elements where embeded in a spiral tunel machined in the steel mold the void was filled with some ceramic material and than capped with a thin steel cover with the required profile machined on it
When it was cooled down enough the top part was raised with a small hydraulic ram and the record was ejected
It was moved to a trimming station labels were placed on the molds fine powder was introduced into the mold it was than closed wiht a little extra pressure
By that time the other record was ready so the press opened the molds where rotated by hand 180 degrees and so on
They never managed to get around the patent so this press and its variants never left the experimental section according to the man
He was there for a while and he told me that they where some 10-12 people working on this at the time him being a hydraulics man and a tool maker
He is around the 75-80 yo mark back in Italy now still active in manufacturing with his son a two man show nowdays with a couple of part time old timers if it gets to much for them
That was only last week that I come across him Quite a co incidence
Cheers

[JayDC]

as far as cooling, ever think about compressed air or gas.. like co2 or liquid nitrogen?.. You can get wither of those from your local welding supply.. the liquid nitrogen will cool it the fastest..

[andybee]

@markrob
I have seen the patent, but there are some things.... not 100% clear and fixed, technically (IMHO).
Have you every seen/listened to a record, pressed with this technique?

[markrob]

Hi,

I haven't, but they turn up on ebay all the time. Search for Emory Cook and you should find some. In their day, they were supposed ot be very quite surfaces.

Mark

[fusionkid]

Awesome project, love it.

RE: Making stampers You can buy nickel electroforming kits like the one here: http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/nef.html
Why not try it out?

[markrob]

Thanks,

Still moving on the next phase. I've been looking at the various plating solutions. Its something I'm considering. Right now, I want to try and get the press side figured out, then I'll see if it makes sense to do plating. I'm concered with the enviromental aspects though. This is an area I need to learn more about. I've even considered vacuum sputtering, but I think its too slow a process.

Mark

[mossboss]

Mark
Dont even bother with Vacuum sputtering mate
The volatiles come out of the lacquer ruinning the process
It was used up and until wax lost its place in the game but not since
Wax does not give out gasses lacquer does under that high level of vacuum required for the process to work
Electroless nickel has been used in the past as a first stage so as to avoid silvering chroming etc
Having said that it was a rather hit and miss affair so everyone reverted back to silvering with chromic acid done away with to seperate metal to metal parts by the use of egg albumin as well as a couple of other substances
In so far as enviromental issues are concerned it is really up to the operator of the plating facility so as to make sure that it is all kept under control
A contaiment vessel around the plating bath will contain any spillage
The washing of lacquers consists of saponin and detergent no different than washing your dishes
The tin sensitiser stays in the container that is kept until it is used up or it gets topped up on an ongoing basis
So the only place that is of concern is the spray booth for the silver nitrate with the acid
That is a total of 3 litres for 5-6 x 12" lacquers
We contain that in a vessel which goes to the silver recovery plant as per photographic and xray materials
Every year or so we get about 1000 litres which is send out for silver recovery
No big deal really if you are doing a pair of 10" lacquers every week it will be a few years before you would collect 1000 litres
By the way
Sulfamate Nickel solution consists of Sulfamic acid which is used in every detergent, hair shampoos, as well as cleaning liquids
The Nickel metal is at about 70 grams per litre besides the boric acid
The two acids are not dangerous to the environment but the Nickel at this concentration is
The point is you would never want to loose the solution due to its cost so the containment vessel is more of a loss prevention measure the environment is protected by default
Hope the above clears any concerns for you in that regard
Cheers

[markrob]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the info. I never considered the outgassing that a laquer might blank might release under high vacuum. Saved me a lot of grief if I ever decided to try that road.

Still not sure I want to take on the electroforming process.

As a totally crazy thought; do you think that I could go back to the wax process with sputtering? The advantage of wax is that it could be re-used and is safe and low cost to work with. Also very easy to cut. If sputtering would work, Its a slow but safe way to make a stamper. In your opinion, can a wax master equal a lacquer in terms of surface noise?

Mark

[mossboss]

Hey Mark
I am a fossil but not from the paleolithic era may be neolithic
Best person who can answer that would have to be Greybeard here a recent member
He has broad exposure to wax cutting in recent years
To the extend that I believe he even has formulae for the wax in colobaration with his son they did some work on this a few years back He has also a wax cutting apparatus of some kind with extensive background in 78's
My experience with wax is zero Only what is available reading material that is to any one else
On another point
Sputtering will be fine and I cannot see why it should be slow assuming that there are two pumps one mechanical the other a difussion it should not be any more than a 5 minute excersise as the chamber to be evacuated is not that large
I do have broad exposure to vacuum metalising on an industrial scale with gear ranging from 18" diameter domes to horizontal chambers 36 inches in diameter 6' long Now that was slow as we had to evacuate such a huge void with multiple scavenging pumps and 3 difussin pumps in tandem A real monster around the 20 tonne in weight where we did around 250 auto headlamp reflectors for sealed beams every 1/2 hour
I have seen small plants that would be suitable for doing this for sale in the US They are coming off silicon processing plants in CA for a few hundred bucks
On another thing
From what I have seen the wax blocks are quite thick like 3-4 inches May be it was a requirement It would be hard to picture a Presto cutting such a thick block or any modern lathe that was ante wax
Just a thought to think about
I did post a link here to a wax cutting video clip where the casting and machining as well as the cutting process of a wax master is quite clear
May be a serach would bring it up It was in German if I remember
Cheers

[markrob]

Hi Chris,

I'll have to do some more research on this topic. I've always liked the short film "Command Performance". It shows the process at RCA in Camden NJ in the 1940's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnkndGHVm4Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS6mUy8YXBI

Mark

[fusionkid]

The places that sell the electroforming stuff also sell sprays one being silver to coat non conductive stuff before electroplating . In small packs too

[greybeard]

Hey mossboss, thanks for the reference.
wax was usually no more than 2 inches, re-surfaced until about one inch, so you got a lot of masters out of an expensive wax. Wax had no volatile solvents, so you would not get outgassing. Lacquers are all made with a slow-drying evaporation process, but solvents remain and do not tolerate heating plus vacuum well. The heating of the surface comes from the sputtering. In order to save on the expensive wax they used to flow-coat glass plates with wax - not a thick layer, and you could sputter that, too.

[markrob]

Hey mossboss, thanks for the reference.
wax was usually no more than 2 inches, re-surfaced until about one inch, so you got a lot of masters out of an expensive wax. Wax had no volatile solvents, so you would not get outgassing. Lacquers are all made with a slow-drying evaporation process, but solvents remain and do not tolerate heating plus vacuum well. The heating of the surface comes from the sputtering. In order to save on the expensive wax they used to flow-coat glass plates with wax - not a thick layer, and you could sputter that, too.

Hi Greybeard,

Thanks for the info. Do you have any links or other info on the wax formulation typically used?

Mark