Cutting on acrylic instead of polycarbonate...

[emorritt]

Thank you Emily Litella

[d]

Got back to see whats wrong and saw the stupid mistake made while aligning head to the turntable.... how could I missed that....

thanks

[fusionkid]

Hi all, i've been reading through all the posts regarding the use of various plastics as recording media. I'm looking to get some discs cut but i am still unsure as to what material to use.
Has anyone used several different types of plastic and made comparisons?
The info here is a little disjointed, can anyone summarise their experience and make any recommendations?
I'm cutting with a diamond, it would be good to have a selection of materials since i am inexperienced maybe it would be a good idea to use a softer material to start with? Could this give any problems?
Also how do the results compare between extruded and cast material?
Any help is much appreciated
Anyone wanting discs in the UK give me a shout if you want to collaborate!

[d]

Hi all, i've been reading through all the posts regarding the use of various plastics as recording media. I'm looking to get some discs cut but i am still unsure as to what material to use.
Has anyone used several different types of plastic and made comparisons?
The info here is a little disjointed, can anyone summarise their experience and make any recommendations?
I'm cutting with a diamond, it would be good to have a selection of materials since i am inexperienced maybe it would be a good idea to use a softer material to start with? Could this give any problems?
Also how do the results compare between extruded and cast material?
Any help is much appreciated

Hey,

the tread is about cutting acrylic with sapphire stylus and it is what is says. It works and quite good...

Haven't tried with diamond but if you read other threads here it is obvious that polycarbonate is the best for it. Best brands are from Bayer or Lexan.

happy experimenting

[piaptk]

I have heard that you SHOULDNT use a diamond on acrylic.. it runs it down pretty quick from what I've heard.

[fraggle]

look this makes absolutely no sense.
A diamaond is harder than saphire therefore it has to last longer.
it does not make sense at all that a material which is softer last longer...
or maybe i'm wrong and someone can tell me off:)
cheers

[opcode66]

My guess is that this wears sapphire down as well. But it is a lot cheaper to replace a sapphire than a diamond...

[d]

look this makes absolutely no sense.
A diamaond is harder than saphire therefore it has to last longer.
it does not make sense at all that a material which is softer last longer...
or maybe i'm wrong and someone can tell me off:)
cheers

From the logic point it does not make sense but.... if you can see acrylic is more fragile and brakes like glass and it does not like to bend and in a certain point it breaks like glass. Polycarbonate is nothing compared with acrylic and can be bent a lot it is more elastic may I say. So it seams like acrylic is harder.. but polycarbonate cannot be cutted with sapphire thats for sure and acrylic can be.

[fusionkid]

I think we're talking about two different properties here. Shock resistance and abrasion resistance are different things.
Hardness is abrasion resistance. I can't remenber all the terminology so forgive me (college was many years ago) I think "Tempering" is shock resistance (correct my term if you know better!)
I've been through this when i was at college just a bit hazy now
Like with metals to make a chisel say, the metal gets hardened first so it can cut, but at this stage if you hit it with a hammer it may shatter. So then you temper it to give shock resistance. You obviously cant do this with plastics, but it shows the different properties

[maniman]

I guess in english is said "wear and tear" , "Desgaste" in Spanish , "l'usure" in French , usually the mistake is refer to hardness when talking about fragileness.

In most languages the opposite of hard is soft (like in english) , but what is the opposite of fragile ? , I think its a language lack , not a concept fault.

[JayDC]

Like with metals to make a chisel say, the metal gets hardened first so it can cut, but at this stage if you hit it with a hammer it may shatter. So then you temper it to give shock resistance. You obviously cant do this with plastics, but it shows the different properties

Tempered metal is heated to a point that when it cools, it hardens harder then before its tempered..

Heated stylus and a lamp could heat the plastic enough to make it softer to cut, but not enough change its physical property. Not tempering it, but you could still use heat to soften the material, and this would probably change the consistency of the chip. Just like how it does with acetate.

I would assume that you need a little more heat then for acetates, although you don't want too much or the plastic will melt...

[fusionkid]

Heated stylus and a lamp could heat the plastic enough to make it softer to cut, but not enough change its physical property. Not tempering it, but you could still use heat to soften the material, and this would probably change the consistency of the chip. Just like how it does with acetate.

You miss the point, i'm just saying these properties exist, i'm not trying to induce them in plastic!
Surely these are properties that matter to users' of plastics?, is it something specified in a data sheet? If so learning about it should help with cutting these plastics. And with selecting suitable plastics

[JayDC]

from what i have read is this:

Acrylic is 10x harder then glass, Lexan is 250x Harder then glass (from marketing materials)

Lexan is advertised to dampen sound when used in windows, this property of the material may isolate platter noise and rumbling.

I have read in this forum that Lexan has less surface noise then acetates.

I have been told it is totally possible to plate Lexan and Acrylic masters for metal parts needed in producing vinyl records.

[cymbalism]

I have been told it is totally possible to plate Lexan and Acrylic masters for metal parts needed in producing vinyl records.

Hey jay

I think flo posted awhile back about his trying to process lexan for pressing and it didnt work. Who told you it would work? I'm interested in hearing this

[JayDC]

I was told as long as you sliver the disc first there should be no problem with plating it. You would have to spray it with silver nitrate.. From what i understand the metal in an acetate does nothing to help the conductivity of the plating process. As long as you silver it first, you should be able to build up the metal surface in the traditional way..

My tests with a piece of acrylic and a sapphire have concluded that acrylic has more surface noise then anything i have ever cut, and makes my lathe screech.. Could be the depth maybe.. I would say no go to acrylic..

[opcode66]

There is debate over if this is possible. I've not heard of anyone actually pressing a run from plating a piece of plastic (no matter what kind). I've been told it is possible as well. But, even if it were you would be looking at a 10" release unless you found some 14" plastic blanks which I've never seen. I'm sure you could have some made however.

To plate any disc you spray it with silver spray. That is standard. So, not sure why you are saying that is the key to plating plastic, since that is the key to plating acetates too. The problems encounetered are in the electroforming bath itself. If you try to do a fast plating the material will end up sluffing off. I remember reading that slow and sure is the way to plate plastic successfully.

I've never heard that plastic of any kind has a lower background noise than a lacquer. I think that is very backwards.

If I'm going to spend the money on a pressed run I want to start with the best disc possible. So, I will always start with a 14" Master Lacquer.

[JayDC]

If I'm going to spend the money on a pressed run I want to start with the best disc possible. So, I will always start with a 14" Master Lacquer.

No argument there.. If a new material was sourced that provided a clean clear sound at a 70-80% less cost, records could be more affordable to produce.. I understand this is one point of the process, but if the process evolved to fit the market, then it would stay relevant.. my 2cents..

[JayDC]

to continue my rant... Research and innovation is the key to success in industry. The key to reclaim market share for vinyl records would be to effectively reduce costs of the production process, not necessarily in the labor field. Mastering, Metal, Press and packaging should all be looked at, effectively streamlined, and have cost reduction ideals implemented. Leaving a profitable margins for industry and artist, but making the end product more affordable for the consumer.

[mossboss]

Hey all
Plating on any plastic is no big deal assuming that it has not been delberately made incapable of being plated
It is common amongst pirates and counterfeiters to do the following
Take an existing record place it in a perspex carrier at around the 14" IN Diameter which is machined down from in the centre to the very outside diameter of the record to be counterfeited The record is than held in there with some low temeperature adhesive The perspex is machined down deep enough so as to present a flat surface when the record is placed in the steped down machined section of the perspex The gap as well as the bead on the record is filled with an epoxy at the joint and sanded back very carefully so it is nice and smooth Than you have effectivelly a positive which you proceed to plate with the normal steps Gold or silver sputtering is also quite effective in this case and works very well
The negatives from this process or any thing cut on a plastic are treated in exactly the same manner as a normal lacquer
That is how counterfeiters get an exact repro of rare expensive records which they sell to unsuspecting buyers as an original as it is certainly an exact copy of the original Labels covers inserts and any thing related to printing is no big deal to reproduce it can be done by any unscruplus printer who is in the company of the pirate counterfeiter
It has been done in the past no doubt in my mind it is happenning now somewhere around the world Doubt it if it will ever stop So here we are on that score
On another thing
There is no money spend on R & D at all by any one in the vinyl game It is hard enough to stay in production with old equipment which is in need of constant maintenance with parts being made to order rather than asking a supplier to provide them to you at a fair cost
I cannot think of anything that has changed or improved upon in the last 30-40 years
Further
Regardless of what is said here as well as other forii there is no way that pressing plants will keep going at current prices offered by the labels or distributors who do P & D for labels
I am not sure where the money will come from for any r and d as it is just enough to keep the wheels turning
It is not that hard to work out at all
at 180 grams weight you get 5 records per KG of plastic compound allowing for waste and loss of the flash during production
The price of PVC compound is easy to get it is around the $2.5-3.00 per kg and it is based on the cost of oil
So you have already the cost of the raw material at around the 50-60 cents The average price paid to the pressing plant is about 1 dollar if that
It is no secret what pressing plans charge Just do a search Just about any one pressing records out there has prices on the web Of course the obvious need not be stated here like rent staff energy equipment cost of money return on investement etc etc So any one out there thinks that there is a pot of gold waiting for them want to rethink plans in going into pressing
Further
I am surprised that no one here takes up the simple point that vinyl is a way of selling print
If you look at the cost of the paper components in the process of putting out a vinyl record most of the money goes into paper
Labels inner and outer sleeves gatefolds box sets and so on incuding packing cartons
Further more
The cost of metal work becomes quite insignificant when the numbers get to around the 1000 pressings per title but very significant at around the 100-150 pressings
Having ranted so far it is my considered view that records are not expensive due to the pressing plant charging a high price but due to other factors as any one here can verify for themshelves
Provide a pressing plant with flat metal plates labels bags inners and outers including packing cartons ask them to do a press run for you and I would be surprised if you will be charged any more than $1.00 per 12" record for a run of 300 If even that You may wear a setup charge of say $30-40 for a run of say 100 Why does it cost so much than at retail level or over the net ?????
Not hard to see that it is NOT the pressing plant thats for sure
But any one can go figure it out Here it is a good start with the numbers give or take a few cents not dollars

Cheers

[JayDC]

Hey all
Plating on any plastic is no big deal assuming that it has not been delberately made incapable of being plated
It is common amongst pirates and counterfeiters to do the following
Take an existing record place it in a perspex carrier at around the 14" IN Diameter which is machined down from in the centre to the very outside diameter of the record to be counterfeited The record is than held in there with some low temeperature adhesive The perspex is machined down deep enough so as to present a flat surface when the record is placed in the steped down machined section of the perspex The gap as well as the bead on the record is filled with an epoxy at the joint and sanded back very carefully so it is nice and smooth Than you have effectivelly a positive which you proceed to plate with the normal steps Gold or silver sputtering is also quite effective in this case and works very well
The negatives from this process or any thing cut on a plastic are treated in exactly the same manner as a normal lacquer
That is how counterfeiters get an exact repro of rare expensive records which they sell to unsuspecting buyers as an original as it is certainly an exact copy of the original Labels covers inserts and any thing related to printing is no big deal to reproduce it can be done by any unscruplus printer who is in the company of the pirate counterfeiter
It has been done in the past no doubt in my mind it is happenning now somewhere around the world Doubt it if it will ever stop So here we are on that score
On another thing
There is no money spend on R & D at all by any one in the vinyl game It is hard enough to stay in production with old equipment which is in need of constant maintenance with parts being made to order rather than asking a supplier to provide them to you at a fair cost
I cannot think of anything that has changed or improved upon in the last 30-40 years
Further
Regardless of what is said here as well as other forii there is no way that pressing plants will keep going at current prices offered by the labels or distributors who do P & D for labels
I am not sure where the money will come from for any r and d as it is just enough to keep the wheels turning
It is not that hard to work out at all
at 180 grams weight you get 5 records per KG of plastic compound allowing for waste and loss of the flash during production
The price of PVC compound is easy to get it is around the $2.5-3.00 per kg and it is based on the cost of oil
So you have already the cost of the raw material at around the 50-60 cents The average price paid to the pressing plant is about 1 dollar if that
It is no secret what pressing plans charge Just do a search Just about any one pressing records out there has prices on the web Of course the obvious need not be stated here like rent staff energy equipment cost of money return on investement etc etc So any one out there thinks that there is a pot of gold waiting for them want to rethink plans in going into pressing
Further
I am surprised that no one here takes up the simple point that vinyl is a way of selling print
If you look at the cost of the paper components in the process of putting out a vinyl record most of the money goes into paper
Labels inner and outer sleeves gatefolds box sets and so on incuding packing cartons
Further more
The cost of metal work becomes quite insignificant when the numbers get to around the 1000 pressings per title but very significant at around the 100-150 pressings
Having ranted so far it is my considered view that records are not expensive due to the pressing plant charging a high price but due to other factors as any one here can verify for themshelves
Provide a pressing plant with flat metal plates labels bags inners and outers including packing cartons ask them to do a press run for you and I would be surprised if you will be charged any more than $1.00 per 12" record for a run of 300 If even that You may wear a setup charge of say $30-40 for a run of say 100 Why does it cost so much than at retail level or over the net ?????
Not hard to see that it is NOT the pressing plant thats for sure
But any one can go figure it out Here it is a good start with the numbers give or take a few cents not dollars

Cheers

Sounds like if someone made a new press, taking advantage of modern technology, energy consumption could be reduced, lowering your operating and possibly your maintenance costs due to the new equipment.

Vinyl is, like you say, part of the petrochemical family, and therefor a commodity. So finding a synthetic material to replace vinyl could be a step in the right direction.

While on the topic of commodities, so are the metals.. Unfortunately there is no way to remove this process, nor make it more efficient. The metal process has got us "by the balls"..

The mastering houses charge a high fee.. I understand that there is skill involved and those whom are skilled should be paid. One thing I noticed is that Apollo has no competition (in the usa). Therefor they can charge whatever they want.. This is a major concern.. and at least 50% of the reason mastering charges are so high...

Also, are you trying to tell me that labels could be supplied via a good photo printer..