Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Topics regarding professional record cutting.

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symatic
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Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 56405Unread post symatic
Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:17 am

Hi trolls

I'm looking to get a specific type of cut for a record I'm working on. it's a performance tool for DJ's and Turntablists rather than a record to sit and listen to.

the cut involves multiple lock grooves, and requires a lathe that has automated head-drop and scrolling functions.

all the audio on the record is sequenced at 133.333333 bpm, so 1.8 second loops throughout. The DAW playing out to the cutting system will probably need to be set up at this BPM too.

Side A is one continuous groove, and the only trickery on this side will be to scroll at certain times to provide track markers. Pretty much a normal cut, just more track markers, and at the end there are two lock-groove tones.

Side B requires a specific technique, which I can perform manually on my Presto 14B, and I have helped develop with someone on a home-made system, so the proof of concept is there, it's just neither of us can do lacquers yet....

The tricky part is: I need the head to drop, cut a 20-30 second program of audio, finishing on a lock groove, then the head lifts, scrolls in, drops and does the same thing agian.
This is all performed in one long "take", and after each lock groove, some automation that will be drawn in on a midi channel in the DAW will raise the head, scroll it in a little, and drop it again, all without the platter or the DAW stopping.

The end result i'm aiming for is a series of beats which play for 30 sec, then end in lock grooves to loop infinitely, but they are all aligned with each other so someone needle-dropping between tracks will hear the beats all being in sync with each other.

I understand this will involve extra studio time to configure, and I anticipate paying more than for a regular cut.

I also understand this probably sounds crazy :) but I know it works because I've done it, and I know it's been done manually on a Neumann system here in the UK - I think the automated method I'm describing will take a lot of the manual/risky elements out of the equation - I just need someone willing to try it and who I can communicate with.

Finally the metalwork/pressing would be done in the UK so I'd need to arrange courier delivery to the factory when the time comes.

Hope someone's into the idea!

Cheers

Si


PS I've tried a few places already and they've turned me down for various reasons - as I said I do get this is asking more than a regular cut!
My regular guy says he can't do it because he says he needs to stop the platter each time he does another lock groove. He's done multiple lock grooves on the same side for me before, perfectly, but the audio was tones rather than drum patterns, so the geometric alignment was not important there.

Another engineer I tried can only cut lock grooves if they are a single groove, not a track that ends in a lock groove.

I think there are ways round both these problems, but it depends on exactly how the cutting system is configured and, understandably, I think both guys were too busy to worry about some experimental cut to sit and listen to me try and tell them how to do their job...

I'm also totally open to the idea that I'm missing something, so feel free to chime in with questions about the procedure!

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misjah
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 56406Unread post misjah
Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:01 pm

Would have been nice to tell me you’re looking further direct after spending answering countless emails. Good luck.

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symatic
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 56407Unread post symatic
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:16 pm

no offence intended, Misjah.

thanks for your time.

As I said via email, I still think discussing this over the phone could help move things forward, and might allow me to design the project to suit your equipment.

You're most welcome to contact me if you are interested in the job - I'd be willing to compensate you for your time for the call.

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Aussie0zborn
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 56414Unread post Aussie0zborn
Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:45 am

There's only one person I can think of who can do this and I see you guys are already acquainted.

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dubcutter89
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 56417Unread post dubcutter89
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:03 pm

It's doubtful anybody else can do what you're asking.
I guess a lot of engineers can do, the question is if somebody is willing to...
(Ok, nice pitch and good TT help, but not rocket science...)
Wanted: ANYTHING ORTOFON related to cutting...thx

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symatic
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 56418Unread post symatic
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:57 pm

looks like I've found someone to try this :)

I'll let you guys know how it goes!

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GeorgeZ
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 56434Unread post GeorgeZ
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:01 am

Hi, we can do that on our automated DMM lathes, but probably not on a lacquer one. We cut several similar records on our DMM lathes in the past and the software can do the requested automated head up/down/ready sequences without stopping the platter its rotating.
We are quite overloaded with orders at the moment, but one of our more experienced cutters could do it on a weekend shift (e.g. last of August). You would just need a good broker to catch a good test pressing time-window...
Jiri Zita
Premastering manager
GZ Vinyl / GZ Media Lodenice
Czech Republic

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jtransition
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 56494Unread post jtransition
Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:37 am

Unless I am missing something ,You should be able to do this on any VMS 70,stopping the carriage is not relevant.

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phax
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 56604Unread post phax
Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:13 am

i've done a few skipless scratchtools (mostly as you described) in the past.

hit me up if you're interested.

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diamone
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 57408Unread post diamone
Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:58 pm

Old thread but how about all the guys that used to or still cut the e.g. Traktor and other music-element loop type discs?
I know everybody that does/did those (or their proteges) all cut their teeth on the e.g. Silver-Burdett classroom music LPs in the late 60s and early 70s.

Those are all around 30 seconds apiece probably 15 or 20 on a side with individual lead-in and lock grooves (albeit without modulation)
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

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symatic
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 57444Unread post symatic
Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:15 am

thanks for the suggestions guys, here's an update:

I found someone to do the cut, and we did some successful experiments - after one error we fixed, we got a working plastic cut. Really spot-on, with the lock grooves where I wanted them AND everything stayed in-sync, so the end-user can pickup and drop the needle at any time, and when it drops it will still be in time with when it left the groove (providing they havent touched the record/platter).

Unfortunately when it came to cutting the laquer, an unforseen issue affected the platter speed during the cut, and I got all the way to having test presses made to find out it was wrong! OUCH!

So now I am waiting for maintenance to be carried out to fix the platter/motor speed issue and we can try again.... its been a long wait but I want to get it right so I'll have to wait!

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Aussie0zborn
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 57455Unread post Aussie0zborn
Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:10 am

Were the lacquers cut on a proper lathe?

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dubcutter89
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 57457Unread post dubcutter89
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:25 am

What is a proper lathe?

I can imagine that this "DJ Tool" is very much used on a "DJ Deck" - probably a 1210.
So if it was cut on a well aligned Vinylrecorder with a 1210 it will play back fine on a 1210.
If it was cut let's say on a Neumann with Lyrec motor it will probably drift quite a bit...

With the 133 1/3 BPM and lets say a nice beat with notes on quarters or similair you should see a pattern with straight lines from edge to center of the record.
Probably no need for playback nor testpressing to judge quality of speed...

Cheers
Lukas
Wanted: ANYTHING ORTOFON related to cutting...thx

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symatic
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 57644Unread post symatic
Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:28 pm

Aussie0zborn wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:10 am
Were the lacquers cut on a proper lathe?
yep it was on a Lyrec-driven Neumann. the plastic Dub came out ok, it had some drift forwards and backwards which suggests inconsistant motor speed... but when we did the lacquer it was much worse. We figured the motor must behave differently depending on temperature but it is unpredictable so we're at a bit of a dead end it seems.

So I'm back to looking for a VMS operator with Pitch 13 or similar....

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dubcutter89
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 57646Unread post dubcutter89
Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:48 pm

As said above I would rather recommend somebody with a good TT - Lyrec will not necesarry keep stable.
Also you can probably judge the quality of the master visually before pressing..
Wanted: ANYTHING ORTOFON related to cutting...thx

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symatic
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 57653Unread post symatic
Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:30 am

dubcutter89 wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:48 pm
As said above I would rather recommend somebody with a good TT - Lyrec will not necesarry keep stable.
Also you can probably judge the quality of the master visually before pressing..
yep, I think these drifting issues are probably minute enough not to be noticable on music, but for my geometrically aligned sounds it reveals the inconsistancies if they are there....

yes you can clearly see when a 133.333333 BPM loop has been cut with accurate speed because the pattern is very clear.
Other BPMs line up too :

83.33 BPM - must be a 5/4 time signature for it to loop, otherwise it will drift by one beat per rotation, but there would still probably be some sort of pattern.
100BPM - must be a 3/4 loop

there are others but these 3 are the most user friendly.

I use the formula BPR x RPM = BPM.

BPR = your desired amount of Beats (or "syllables" when you're working with vocal samples like me) that you want Per Rotation.
RPM = the Revolutions Per Minute that you will be cutting at (pretty obvious :) )
BPM = the Beats Per Minute you will need to build your track to in your DAW. The more decimals the better, Ableton goes to 6 decimals for example. Also you will need to choose the correct time signature, which is just a case of applying your BPR number to the beats-per-bar in your DAW's time signature setting.

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symatic
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 57654Unread post symatic
Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:33 am

oh and the 100BPM - it's deliberately not 99.999999BPM, when I did this it came out with a drift in the wrong direction.

Some drift BACKWARDS is actually desirable, as the playback turntable is probably using a standard tonearm that pivots, so with a slight backwards drift you actually get a nice curve that lines up to your tone arm's tracking arc.

this trick is even more dependant on accurate motors though, so I normally just keep things as simple as I can and go with a straight line.

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dubcutter89
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 57657Unread post dubcutter89
Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:39 pm

Some drift BACKWARDS is actually desirable, as the playback turntable is probably using a standard tonearm that pivots, so with a slight backwards drift you actually get a nice curve that lines up to your tone arm's tracking arc.
Ouch, that's something not trivial to predict and compensate for...
Wanted: ANYTHING ORTOFON related to cutting...thx

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symatic
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 57669Unread post symatic
Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:13 am

exactly - that's why i don't bother with it yet :)

interestingly, I use one cutting engineer, and my friend who does the same type of records uses another cutting engineer, but he sends me his files first to line them up on a 133.333333 bpm grid (his DAW doesn't do that many decimals, and it makes a difference!) so our source files are exactly the same BPM, but his cuts always have the perfect "curve" to them.
I think it must be that his engineers lathe is the a tiny bit off-speed (or maybe its my engineer!) but it is a lucky mistake, as the crurve is close to perfect against a tone-arm arc.
Mine are normally perfectly straight.

I have wondered if I should format to 133.32 BPM... but I don't want to mess up a system that is working ok :)

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symatic
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Re: Looking for an engineer to cut a master lacquer

Post: # 60314Unread post symatic
Wed Feb 23, 2022 12:42 pm

wow I never posted an update on this project! whoops.

It got done finally! After some experiments with the extremely helpful guys at Dr Dub, we proved that the platter motor was also a very important piece of this puzzle.

I ended up having to get super specialist and get my lacquer done on a VMS80, which also had programmable pitch control.

So many many thanks to Tom Haunstein at Phax mastering who managed to get this master cut!

The result was excellent - a record with syncronized lock grooves. So the operator can lift the needle and drop it to another groove and remain in-time with the rest of the record's content. This opens up lots of possibilites for turntablist perfomance - niche I know :)

anyway my friend Freddie did a review of the records so you can see how it works.
(freddie should also get a shout out becasue he also tried this exact same technique before - we tried to figure it out together years ago and he got an engineer to manually drop the cutter head on-beat..... it was very costly in wasted blanks and was extremely difficult! so while the proof of concept was there, we still needed a repeatable method.)

https://youtu.be/oToyl057BpU?t=907

and the effort paid off because this has been one of our most popular records :))

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