Dubplate shortage

[handcut]

I blame RSD

It is my understanding that the whole dubs/masters thing is an archaic term, in the same way they get called acetates even though acetate hasn't been used for decades. This technology has been around for donkey's years, you would expect folks to be pretty good at it by now!
I spoke to a guy at a local university earlier this year about this very subject and he didn't seem to think it would be difficult at all - "its just a metal disc with a layer of nitrocellulose - simple!" Was his response. Closely followed by "...but very dangerous." I'll get back in touch with him - he has my AES anthologies!!!

[mratx]

They just showed the episode of How It's Made with the vinyl record segment on the Science Channel Monday (partially filmed at Transco), and when they showed the part about making the lacquers with the aluminum bases going thorough the curtain of lacquer my two thoughts were "If that formulation is self leveling that can't be that hard" and "whoops, forgot about the flammability". I know it's just an edited version of the process, but it was basically prepare aluminum base, run through lacquer curtain, trim and punch, inspect finished product. If you could come up with the compound I don't think it would be that hard, although the volatility of the liquid could make it difficult (since it would be busy hardening and expelling VOCs as soon as it was exposed to the air, so you'd need to coat the bases quickly.)

Mark

[ROLANDJAYS]

I thought about making my own but couldn't find laquer in bulk quantities. Help

[opcode66]

--== Lacquer Cooperative ==--

It could be a reality. How serious is everybody?

[tragwag]

I have a local chemistry friend who is always into experimenting and trying new things.
might be able to get his help and opinion on some things.

[opcode66]

I studied Chemistry for 3 years before changing majors to Computer Science. I technically Majored in Comp Sci and Minored in Chemistry.

[Stevie342000]

I studied Chemistry for 3 years before changing majors to Computer Science. I technically Majored in Comp Sci and Minored in Chemistry.

Making lacquer disks is not without it's dangers, I have just read a book on Cecil E Watts the pioneer of direct disc recording by Agnes Watts (his wife), it lacks content on the development of his cutting lathe and the lacquer discs that he developed between 1928 and 1932.

He had a number of issues, including carrying the gallon drums of lacquer on London's Underground or his former wife did, she had to disguise it.

There were issues with the actual lacquer itself in 1938/39 when supplying discs to the BBC which he had been doing along with disc cutting machines from about 1933/34, noise levels had gone up. So the BBC recommended a research chemist, who found that the noise was caused or they determined where the noise was coming from when they found out that the supplier of the lacquer had changed their filtering method, they were using sand.

Knowing this Watts with the chemist developed a further filtering process to re-filter the lacquer, to remove all particulate. In addition they then had to replace all the discs so far supplied to the BBC, they had to lay staff off, they had to take out finance in order to cover the replacement costs. Once the war broke out they were taken over by the GPO (Post Office - who did the research for computers etc - check out Bletchley Park - Code Breakers). Once the war ended the business had been vastly expanded, with huge loans for new premises and the range had been savaged by bean counters at GPO, the GPO no longer wanted to know and sold the company off. Cecil E Watts found himself in the position that he was no longer in charge of his own company and had to account to a board of directors. His contract was for 6 year and expired in 1953, he had a clause in his contract as well which stated that if he developed any products which were associated with the work of MSS then they would hold the rights to it, so he and his wife ran a cafe for over 12 months in which time he developed the Dust Bug and patented it after that period.

But back to lacquers there were 3 fires 2 when he was producing lacquers in an apartment, office come recording studio on Shaftsbury Avenue, one when a person he had trained to do the coating threw a lit cigarette towards the fan you can guess what happened, in those days the fans were all metal and it was just a lot of smoke and flames exhausting out the window. The second incident was when Agnes' father was doing some DIY work for them and after the first incident they had put a second fan in the kitchen. Oh yes gas cooker was used to light a piece of paper for his pipe, he extinguished said piece of paper in normal manner dropping it to the floor and putting his foot on it, only the fan got hold of it and there was an almighty bang and a flash of flame. He had to roll around on the floor to put the fire out on his back.

The third incident was when they moved to factory after this as they decided it was too dangerous and was after the GPO take-over, when they were discussing the issue in the office of recovering the aluminium blanks they stripped the lacquer off and were stacking it in the corner of the factory, which was in or near Wimbledon before they moved or might be later to the new premises near London Airport (now Heathrow). When the inevitable happened, they had to all help to put the fire out, this time it was serious. The GPO part is the nasty part of the story, as when they took over in 1939 there was a law passed by the UK government to prevent profiteering by not being able to exceed previous years profits or capping pay, having had the BBC incident the year before they were in a bad place and just coming out of it, after the war they were left with the option of taking back over the company including the huge loans because the GPO had no use for it now war was over. They took the payouts and he got the 6 year contract he found that when he wanted to do more developments in disc recording/recorders that the board was not listening as they were talking about tape....he had a grisly 6 years.

The other issue they had was getting the mirror like finish on the aluminium blanks.

I am not saying don't do it but it will take serious amounts of money, the days of developing lacquer in a loft space are well gone, there will be licenses, rules and regs (EPA) which will need to be adhered to, not forgetting capital equipment costs. I suggest a scoping (feasibility) report should be carried out first before anyone commits anything to paper. It was only relatively cheap back in the day because of the demand, any end product is not going to be cheap these days.

The doing the disc bit is not the hard bit it will be the rules and regulations/licenses that will be difficult.

George Saliba (Presto) developed a lacquer disc circa 1933/4 (I think the latter) it is my opinion that Watts was first and Saliba did the same thing in the US in his little shed (co-invention). Both if not the latter found that the lacquer disc was not patentable - the concept of a coated disc was covered by an earlier patent probably Bell Labs circa 1925. So neither had the rights in the UK we had 2 UK manufacturers and/or suppliers (there was other suppliers/manufactures but most were short lived except Pyral (but pre-dates EMI) - who may have been licensed by MSS and/or EMI who was licensed to produce lacquers) MSS (Watts) from 1932 onwards until about 1966-70 after which they only made tape before going bust or ceasing production in 1976 and EMI who I suspect got into lacquer discs either pre WWII or shortly post (BBC did tests on lacquer discs to determine best product) and I suspect EMI ceased production about the same time, as Hayes works was decommissioned from that point onwards. No one was doing anything in house any more. Decca, EMI and Pye Records were all very much in to research and development tied to government/security contracts - Pye went bust completely in the early 1980s - once the big money contracts were gone so was the R & D departments and often the organisation.

EMI had the habit even in the 1940 of buying up other companies to get a hold on the patents and often moth-balled the original organisation as it only wanted the patent.

Anyhow all that said, I still say go ahead and do it, if you think it's feasible, no matter what way you cut it the consumption of lacquers is not going to be on the scale of ye olden days when a glimpse of stocking was something shock....but we do deserve a decent product all said and done.

[petermontg]

Buy an RV and drive it to the desert. Worked for others

Has Apollo any fast food chicken shops though..............

[tragwag]

Buy an RV and drive it to the desert. Worked for others

Has Apollo any fast food chicken shops though..............

haha! good one

[handcut]

Buy an RV and drive it to the desert. Worked for others

Has Apollo any fast food chicken shops though..............

Los Apollos Hermanos

[Sillitoe]

Buy an RV and drive it to the desert. Worked for others

Has Apollo any fast food chicken shops though..............

Los Apollos Hermanos

Hahaha

[opcode66]

Devising a proper lacquer compound and realistic production process would only require time and money. Honestly, so many other problems are harder to solve than this one. There used to be a lot of companies making lacquers 50 years ago. It absolutely can't be that difficult.

[dietrich10]

If you first decide that the goal is just 12"/10" dub plates that takes away a lot of trial of error of making sure they translate correctly in the galvanic process.

Finding someone to make the aluminum discs should be the easy part.
You would need a collective of 5+ people who cut a lot of dub plates...

[opcode66]

I think making the most common plates first and foremost would the place to begin. I think more like 10
members would be reasonable. We would have to have enough members to cover possible losses due to manufacturing errors. Wouldn't want to be so small it has potential to fail. 12" Dubs, 10" Masters and 14" Masters. 320 and Westrex styli. That's it to start.

[concretecowboy71]

So many other ways to do test cuts...

Test cuts can be done on the outside of all lacquers. 14" is a bit tight but there is so much real estate on a 10" that you can cut almost the whole song and not run into problems.

Don't have a tone arm on your lathe? There are new turntables out there that will play 14" discs no problem.

Save all of your scrap/blown lacquers and test cut on those.

I don't think the sky is falling and in this climate you have to just roll with it.

If you cut only dubs for a living, yes this could be a problem.

The lacquer contains huge amounts of VOC and nobody wants to touch a project like this. Even the Chinese turned us down when asked what we wanted them to produce. I would think navigating the EPA regs on this would be more than most people want to deal with.

[emidisc]

Maybe a stupid question but why is the coating not sprayed onto the aluminium?
Just because the manufacturing process is currently carried out in a certain way it doesn't mean it's the best! Especially when the process has basically remained the same for 5 decades....
All the blurb says years of research & development & high levels of quality control I think some on this site would disagree certainly on the later point.
I can't help feeling there is a degree of smoke & mirrors involved in the process but when you are the only player it makes little difference.

I like many on this site have a stack of used/spoiled dubs is there an effective way of stripping them ?

[concretecowboy71]

Soak them in acetone.

[opcode66]

I recall reading that they can be boiled in water and the lacquer layer sluffs off.

I think there are places starving for tax income. Places in lets say Arizona or New Mexico. If Apllo can produce lacquers in California, one of the most restrictive states with respect to hazardous chemicals, then this is possible.

Finally, I'm convinced, which is totally predictable, that more modern chemical process and techniques could be employed to accomplish this goal differently than it current is. That's all I'll say.

[dietrich10]

Finally, I'm convinced, which is totally predictable, that more modern chemical process and techniques could be employed to accomplish this goal differently than it current is. That's all I'll say.

Then you run into the next beast which is does it then change the electro-plating process?

I still believe dubs would be easier to produce than production lacquers

[opcode66]

I've spoken my mind. Over and out.