Dubplate shortage
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- Dub Studio
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:41 am
- Location: Bristol
- Contact:
Dubplate shortage
I have just been told there are no 12 inch acetate dubplates available here in the UK at the moment, and I don't want to blame anyone in particular but just wanted make a plea to get the situation sorted and wondered if any of the other trolls here feel the same way.
To be perfectly honest I find this situation is unacceptable. Dubplates are my livelihood and I am turning clients away because I can't get hold of stock here. The reason given is that dubplates are "a by-product of the master lacquer production process" and "we get what we are given".
Well, I am here to dispute that!
1) Dubplates are an essential part of the quality control process of vinyl production. Ever tried sending a 14" lacquer to a client as a reference? Of course not, it won't even play on their turntable. They need a 12" reference for a 12 inch pressing, so dubplates are a necessity, not just a handy way to get rid of messed up 12" lacquers.
2) What exactly is the point of producing 7 inch dubplates? What are they supposed to be the master lacquers for? 5" pressings? Of course not. Ergo, 7 inch dubs are made for one purpose and one purpose only, they are not a by-product, so why should 10s and 12s?
3) I pay good money for these acetates, and a lot of the time they come with bubbles, ripples, and bends and I have to chuck them, so some of this "by-product" isn't even fit for purpose as a dubplate.
4) I seem to be paying loads more than I ever used to pay for these things, and to be frank, at these prices I expect smooth, flat dubs with no bubbles.
5) I have found vintage transco dubs on ebay which are smooth, flat and completely free from bubbles. They even have a thinner, lighter substrate. Sometimes I get batches of 10 or more with not a single imperfection, so I know what can be achieved.
6) Dubplates are a thing, they always have been. Loads of companies have, over the years, made discs for one-off recording purposes - and not all of them did so because they had a load of dodgy lacquers lying around.
I guess what I am trying to say is that if you make a decision not to supply dubplates as a thing, because its not profitable enough, or its a too much of a ball ache. Fair enough. Step up and say so. But please don't patronise us dubplate cutting engineers by saying that we are just bottom feeders, helping to reduce your wastage.
Please, please, please, get dubplates into production as a thing. If it costs a little more, so be it, but leaving the process to chance is just crazy.... because the better you get at making lacquers, the fewer dubs you will have. How can that possibly work?
If it wasn't for dubplate culture, the vinyl industry would simply not be in the healthy state its in at the moment. Can you imagine what would have happened to all the lathes and presses if for the intervening period between the advent of CDs and now, no DJs ever cut dubplates, never played vinyl as a performance medium and never released their material on vinyl? What state would the industry be in now?
You owe it to dubplate culture to sort this situation out.
To be perfectly honest I find this situation is unacceptable. Dubplates are my livelihood and I am turning clients away because I can't get hold of stock here. The reason given is that dubplates are "a by-product of the master lacquer production process" and "we get what we are given".
Well, I am here to dispute that!
1) Dubplates are an essential part of the quality control process of vinyl production. Ever tried sending a 14" lacquer to a client as a reference? Of course not, it won't even play on their turntable. They need a 12" reference for a 12 inch pressing, so dubplates are a necessity, not just a handy way to get rid of messed up 12" lacquers.
2) What exactly is the point of producing 7 inch dubplates? What are they supposed to be the master lacquers for? 5" pressings? Of course not. Ergo, 7 inch dubs are made for one purpose and one purpose only, they are not a by-product, so why should 10s and 12s?
3) I pay good money for these acetates, and a lot of the time they come with bubbles, ripples, and bends and I have to chuck them, so some of this "by-product" isn't even fit for purpose as a dubplate.
4) I seem to be paying loads more than I ever used to pay for these things, and to be frank, at these prices I expect smooth, flat dubs with no bubbles.
5) I have found vintage transco dubs on ebay which are smooth, flat and completely free from bubbles. They even have a thinner, lighter substrate. Sometimes I get batches of 10 or more with not a single imperfection, so I know what can be achieved.
6) Dubplates are a thing, they always have been. Loads of companies have, over the years, made discs for one-off recording purposes - and not all of them did so because they had a load of dodgy lacquers lying around.
I guess what I am trying to say is that if you make a decision not to supply dubplates as a thing, because its not profitable enough, or its a too much of a ball ache. Fair enough. Step up and say so. But please don't patronise us dubplate cutting engineers by saying that we are just bottom feeders, helping to reduce your wastage.
Please, please, please, get dubplates into production as a thing. If it costs a little more, so be it, but leaving the process to chance is just crazy.... because the better you get at making lacquers, the fewer dubs you will have. How can that possibly work?
If it wasn't for dubplate culture, the vinyl industry would simply not be in the healthy state its in at the moment. Can you imagine what would have happened to all the lathes and presses if for the intervening period between the advent of CDs and now, no DJs ever cut dubplates, never played vinyl as a performance medium and never released their material on vinyl? What state would the industry be in now?
You owe it to dubplate culture to sort this situation out.
Re: Dubplate shortage
I totally agree with all your comments - fortunately I don't make a living from cutting!
There definitely needs to be competition in the Dub manufacture business,
If Appollo for some reason went down the pan ? What then for the busy mastering houses?
I know there would still be MDC but they appear difficult to acquire & again expensive.
Emidisc
There definitely needs to be competition in the Dub manufacture business,
If Appollo for some reason went down the pan ? What then for the busy mastering houses?
I know there would still be MDC but they appear difficult to acquire & again expensive.
Emidisc
Re: Dubplate shortage
We're all there with you. One company supporting the entire vinyl production industry...
I tried to order dubs a few weeks ago and was told they were back ordered till mid June.
I couldn't wait so we ordered 12" masters instead. I have a feeling it's going to take a catastrophe before someone else starts making lacquers.
I wish Pyral in France would start up operations again...
Vinyl demand is showing no signs of slowing down.
JJG
I tried to order dubs a few weeks ago and was told they were back ordered till mid June.
I couldn't wait so we ordered 12" masters instead. I have a feeling it's going to take a catastrophe before someone else starts making lacquers.
I wish Pyral in France would start up operations again...
Vinyl demand is showing no signs of slowing down.
JJG
Re: Dubplate shortage
Hmmm what an interesting thread here!
Pyral is a company not really far from where we are and has just been bough by an other company just one hour from here (more and more closer).
I will give a "curious guy" call next monday to know what happened and of course if something could be possible.... let's see
cheers,
S.
Pyral is a company not really far from where we are and has just been bough by an other company just one hour from here (more and more closer).
I will give a "curious guy" call next monday to know what happened and of course if something could be possible.... let's see
cheers,
S.
http://www.myshank.com
skype : steven.myshank
* Diamond cutting stylus officials/prototypes
* Resharpening services
* Blank records
* Cutting lathe
skype : steven.myshank
* Diamond cutting stylus officials/prototypes
* Resharpening services
* Blank records
* Cutting lathe
Re: Dubplate shortage
Let us know how the call goes
I've emailed them in the past but no reply.
http://www.pyral.fr/company/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyral
Merci!
JJG
I've emailed them in the past but no reply.
http://www.pyral.fr/company/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyral
Merci!
JJG
- leo gonzalez
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:37 pm
Re: Dubplate shortage
ok ok ok!
hold on. you guys know dubplates are reject lacquers right?!
vinyl market up... ergo...
cheers!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
hold on. you guys know dubplates are reject lacquers right?!
vinyl market up... ergo...
cheers!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
- Dub Studio
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:41 am
- Location: Bristol
- Contact:
Re: Dubplate shortage
Dub plates are not always a by-product Leo...
7 inch Audiodiscs are not a by-product.
8 inch Audiodiscs were not a by-product
Apollo Reference Lites were not a by-product
etc etc etc
Sure sometimes its convenient to use rejected lacquers as dub plates, and maybe that's why people wrongly assume that all dubs are rejects, but that's simply not true, as evidenced by Apollo Masters' own website, which clearly advertises 7 inch dubs (large hole and small), for example.
Even if we ignore that evidence, logically speaking, more lacquers should equal more by-product, and more by-product should mean more dubs, right?
Wrong. But why?
7 inch Audiodiscs are not a by-product.
8 inch Audiodiscs were not a by-product
Apollo Reference Lites were not a by-product
etc etc etc
Sure sometimes its convenient to use rejected lacquers as dub plates, and maybe that's why people wrongly assume that all dubs are rejects, but that's simply not true, as evidenced by Apollo Masters' own website, which clearly advertises 7 inch dubs (large hole and small), for example.
Even if we ignore that evidence, logically speaking, more lacquers should equal more by-product, and more by-product should mean more dubs, right?
Wrong. But why?
- leo gonzalez
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:37 pm
Re: Dubplate shortage
good effort. but no.
demand for lacquers is high and ergo quality lately seems to be on then downside...
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demand for lacquers is high and ergo quality lately seems to be on then downside...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
- Dub Studio
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- Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:41 am
- Location: Bristol
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Re: Dubplate shortage
Thanks Leo
Seriously, is that it?
Seriously, is that it?
- leo gonzalez
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:37 pm
Re: Dubplate shortage
yes
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
- Dub Studio
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:41 am
- Location: Bristol
- Contact:
Re: Dubplate shortage
Ok thanks for your input Leo. I am not sure I understand your sentiment here, but I appreciate you taking the time to give your thoughts.
I am sure there are other people here who are interested in safeguarding the supply of dub plates, and certainly a lot of my clients are very concerned.
I have always seen dub plates as a vital part of the quality control process and I can only see this having a detrimental affect on quality. Without a steady supply of reasonably priced dubs, how will we do test cuts, and train up the next generation of mastering engineers if all we have are expensive master lacquers to practice on?
I am sure there are other people here who are interested in safeguarding the supply of dub plates, and certainly a lot of my clients are very concerned.
I have always seen dub plates as a vital part of the quality control process and I can only see this having a detrimental affect on quality. Without a steady supply of reasonably priced dubs, how will we do test cuts, and train up the next generation of mastering engineers if all we have are expensive master lacquers to practice on?
Re: Dubplate shortage
After few research, Pyral wasn't the company who produced laquers. It was an other company installed in the same factory. The name was : KODAK Polychrome, then bought by an other american company
and then... closed.
All the site has been destroyed and the machinery has gone to a metal dealer...
Apollo have many beautiful days ahead...
cheers,
S.
and then... closed.
All the site has been destroyed and the machinery has gone to a metal dealer...
Apollo have many beautiful days ahead...
cheers,
S.
http://www.myshank.com
skype : steven.myshank
* Diamond cutting stylus officials/prototypes
* Resharpening services
* Blank records
* Cutting lathe
skype : steven.myshank
* Diamond cutting stylus officials/prototypes
* Resharpening services
* Blank records
* Cutting lathe
- Stevie342000
- Posts: 497
- Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:12 pm
Re: Dubplate shortage
I thought at one point recently Pyral had a fire and that was why they stopped production. But I have a feeling that they have gone back into tape manufacturing if not lacquer disks as well.The Shank wrote:After few research, Pyral wasn't the company who produced laquers. It was an other company installed in the same factory. The name was : KODAK Polychrome, then bought by an other american company
and then... closed.
All the site has been destroyed and the machinery has gone to a metal dealer...
Apollo have many beautiful days ahead...
cheers,
S.
But not sure of any of that for certain. it may have been some time back.
Re: Dubplate shortage
Maybe there would be some documentation left somewhere. Lacquer compound formulations, manuals, procedures etc.?
@MyShank, Did you speak with someone?
JJG
@MyShank, Did you speak with someone?
JJG
Re: Dubplate shortage
Yes, with Pyral.jjgolden wrote: @MyShank, Did you speak with someone?
JJG
http://www.myshank.com
skype : steven.myshank
* Diamond cutting stylus officials/prototypes
* Resharpening services
* Blank records
* Cutting lathe
skype : steven.myshank
* Diamond cutting stylus officials/prototypes
* Resharpening services
* Blank records
* Cutting lathe
Re: Dubplate shortage
Thanks,
They're location used to be at:
47 rue L' Echat 94001 Creteil.
Apparently that's where they were manufactured?
I have a few old boxes of Pyral Lacquers with that address on them.
JJG
They're location used to be at:
47 rue L' Echat 94001 Creteil.
Apparently that's where they were manufactured?
I have a few old boxes of Pyral Lacquers with that address on them.
JJG
Re: Dubplate shortage
Pyral moved from Creteil in 1985 to Avranches.jjgolden wrote:Thanks,
They're location used to be at:
47 rue L' Echat 94001 Creteil.
Apparently that's where they were manufactured?
I have a few old boxes of Pyral Lacquers with that address on them.
JJG
http://www.myshank.com
skype : steven.myshank
* Diamond cutting stylus officials/prototypes
* Resharpening services
* Blank records
* Cutting lathe
skype : steven.myshank
* Diamond cutting stylus officials/prototypes
* Resharpening services
* Blank records
* Cutting lathe
Re: Dubplate shortage
That's good to know, thanks for the info!
JJG
JJG
- Dub Studio
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Re: Dubplate shortage
Yes, great info! Who knows something might come of that, but I think Pyral sold their rights, and so there might be nothing they can do anyway.
I think it makes more sense to focus on existing manufacturers, perhaps with a view to establishing how much of a demand there is likely to be for dub plates in the future, both in Europe and Stateside. Clearly if there is a demand for dubs, the supply should aim to meet that demand.
I know my studio needs them, and also another cutting house in Bristol, and that's just one city in one country...
I think it makes more sense to focus on existing manufacturers, perhaps with a view to establishing how much of a demand there is likely to be for dub plates in the future, both in Europe and Stateside. Clearly if there is a demand for dubs, the supply should aim to meet that demand.
I know my studio needs them, and also another cutting house in Bristol, and that's just one city in one country...
Re: Dubplate shortage
I see so few 10" pressings. 12" Master are purportedly for 10" pressings. Given these two facts, the idea that 12" dubs are actually failed 12" Master Lacquers is illogical. Having this much failed 12" Masters which are rebranded as 12 Dubs would only make sense if there were a preponderance of 10" pressings. That simply is not the case. Last 10" pressing I saw was made over 8 years ago. Not saying there are zero. But there are way way more 12" pressings. If we are to believe that 12" Dubs are failed 12" Masters, then I would cringe to think how many failed 14" Master they must obviously throw away since there are no 14" Dubs for sale.
Food for thought.
The coating machines are very similar to those used to coat chocolate on candies. I'm fairly certain you could modify a candy coating machine to make lacquers. Any chemist worth their degree could make a compound for us... All it takes is money folks. If enough of us wanted to start a co-op we could produce our own styli and lacquers.
Food for thought.
The coating machines are very similar to those used to coat chocolate on candies. I'm fairly certain you could modify a candy coating machine to make lacquers. Any chemist worth their degree could make a compound for us... All it takes is money folks. If enough of us wanted to start a co-op we could produce our own styli and lacquers.
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Groove Graphics, VMS Halfnuts, MIDI Automation, Professional Stereo Feedback Cutterheads, and Pesto 1-D Cutterhead Clones
Cutterhead Repair: Recoiling, Cleaning, Cloning of Screws, Dampers & More
http://mantra.audio