Vinylrecorder VS vinilium for dubplates and lacquer

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pellegrino707
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Vinylrecorder VS vinilium for dubplates and lacquer

Post: # 28381Unread post pellegrino707
Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:59 pm

Hi there,

I'm new in the forum, but i'm reading posts here since 2 years.

After 2 years of studies and planning, i've decided to start my vinyl cutting experience buying a dubcutter, so i found this 2 solutions.
I know that there are a lots of theard about, but are old e somebody hanges his opinion...
After some researches i think to prefer the t560 because is more intuitive, you can buy the extensions (if Souri give you the autorization!) and you can have all the parameters in your hand.
I've contacted both the society, Souri said me that can't sell me the feedback cutterhead because i'm a beginner (this means that i can't have a good product before he thinks is the right moment...), while Vinylium doesn't reply me...

I'll use the cutter primarly to cut one-copy vinyls, and when i'll be more experienced, try to cut 14" lacquer masters.

According to you, what lathe is better to my project?

thanks in advice for all the inputs.

Marco

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Stevie342000
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Re: Vinylrecorder VS vinilium for dubplates and lacquer

Post: # 28385Unread post Stevie342000
Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:01 pm

Its a big investment, you do not have a lot of choices outside of old cutting equipment and at the end of the day Sourri has you by the short and curlies.

Its a good system pity it is not more freely available, beware he will discuss issues with you to point. If your knowledge is limited at some point he may or will say enough is enough and not communicate with you any further.

Even if you are serious, he has a reputation for being a pain. As for Vinilium I had the understanding they made even less machines or parts than Souri does these days.

Glad I hung out for a second hand vintage cutting lathe in the Semi Professional bracket the same as the above with out a lot of the automatic functions that 50 years on of technological advances has brought about. But infinitely easier to repair, not reliant upon redundant or soon to solid state technology.

There is a lot of satisfaction to be had out of bringing an old lathe back to life and setting up your own recording chain, your the boss all the way through.

There comes a point when all machines are difficult to repair, hardly any new manufacturers and even for the older lathes spare parts will at some point run out. But most of the old kit is well designed much of it is over 30 years or more old and still functions. Many of the designs are even older the Presto 6N came out about 1942, was upgraded over time to enable cutting modern microgroove or long playing records (you just change the feedscrew).

Personally I think you will be lucky if get that long out of a modern piece of kit.

At the end of the day its your choice if you go the older cutter route (pro or semi pro) one of the newer ones.

Beware of buying a secondhand Vinylrecorder Sourri will not supply any parts for them or any help with fixing it.

It may be more worthwhile getting an old lathe such as a Presto 6N sorting out a cutting amp chain, with limiter, Inverse RIAA, power amp and so. Start off with a mono head, learn to cut in mono first and then buy one of the Caruso cutting heads, I see from the website a new batch is due to be produced or orders taken from February 2014.

Not much to go wrong with a Presto 6N or try to get one of the Fairchild Recorders like 539 which I think has variable pitch. Our just put an order in with this list founder Steve E for other cutter lead screws for the 6N.

This is all only my opinion one to which we are all entitled based on my experience and limited knowledge.

Personally I would avoid either of your choices for a number of reasons mostly because they will become obsolete a lot faster than older cutters.

Unless you have lots of money and time to burn on a Scully or Neumann lathe I would avoid them as well, lots of decent semi pro machines like a Presto or a Rek o Kut machines to get your teeth into and all the support you need here.

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pellegrino707
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Re: Vinylrecorder VS vinilium for dubplates and lacquer

Post: # 28416Unread post pellegrino707
Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:07 am

Thanks for your suggestion.

I really understand what you mean, i always prefer vintage gear (i'm a vintage synths collector), because new products try to reproduce the same result of a vintage gear, but without the old way to build it, so new stuff are usually more deteriorable than the vintage one...

About this lathe's choice, i'm thinking differently because i need to get in touch with my first lathe, and i would like to use it for my passion and also for a business, starting just selling one-copy vinyls or dubplates and i think that for this use the new products (i'm thinking more about the vinylrecorder) can give you the best result.

For sure when i'll be more experienced (and perhaps I will have accumulated more money and customers), i'll start to search a Neumann or Scully machines, that are the only possible choice, according to me, to cut a real lacquer master. Get one of those lathes at my age (i'm 23) maybe it's a little risky and hasty... :|

Someone have cutted 14" lacquer masters with a Vinylrecorder? what result?

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Stevie342000
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Re: Vinylrecorder VS vinilium for dubplates and lacquer

Post: # 28419Unread post Stevie342000
Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:12 pm

No problem keep us posted and started saving hard. There is a lot to learn Suggest you read the Boden book (see alternative thread). Read Read and Read again all the information you can find, check out the Wiki link on cutting. Check out Resources or Reference as well as schematics section.

The learning never stops in all aspects of life. Keep us posted on your advantages most of the question have already been asked. There is a Scully manual in the reference section I think it is.

From what I have seen here there is not much money to be made from cutting discs most of us are here trying to preserve or resurrect a past technology. Check out Transco for lacquers get quotes look at all the costs before you jump in.

Hope that helps, seriously not trying to put you off just be realistic in aims and ambitions.

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concretecowboy71
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Re: Vinylrecorder VS vinilium for dubplates and lacquer

Post: # 28521Unread post concretecowboy71
Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:12 pm

Write a business plan. That is the one and only way you will know if you will make money. Where are your customers? How will you reach them? How much time are you willing to put in each day tracking down people who have not paid you or answering questions from clients who are new to the process?

Cutting records is a great job, but it is a serious job. I know very few people that make money producing lathe cut records. The lower level gear you mentioned is not even close to what you need to produce masters for vinyl production.

I would suggest becoming an intern for somebody to see how this business works or keep it a hobby and avoid going crazy.
Cutting Masters in Bristol,Virginia, USA
Well Made Music / Gotta Groove Records

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pellegrino707
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Re: Vinylrecorder VS vinilium for dubplates and lacquer

Post: # 28543Unread post pellegrino707
Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:56 pm

i really would like to do an internship in some studio, but seems to be impossible. Nobody want to have an apprentice in the own cutting room...
I've tried in a lots of mastering studios in Europe. I think that some cutting engineers want to keep their knowledge for them...
Thus the only way that i've found to start to cut vinyl is the dubplate (small) business. I hope to find the money to buy a Neumann lathe soon!!

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Re: Vinylrecorder VS vinilium for dubplates and lacquer

Post: # 30664Unread post SUNBEARS
Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:02 pm

I've been cutting master lacquers on the Vinylrecorder for months now and have had great results! A few things to note.

You MUST buy the precision motor and platter from Souri (he will make you wait a few months and will only sell to you after you've been cutting/buying blancs for a while).
You MAY have to have your cutterhead torque tube customized. An Adamant 320 Shank Styli may not fit! I had to have my torque tube modded (by Souri, of course!)
Also, it will be hard to create a competitive Master without his "Automatic Groove Distance Controller." (You will have to wait for this as well) Your masters will always end up being quieter than anyone cutting on a Neumann lathe without this unit. However, this is not the case when cutting plastic. You have actually cut LOUDER on plastic more easily and you can with acetate, in my experience, without the variable pitch module.

Souri is the master!

Good luck, brother!!

Cheers.
The loudness war is over, if you want it! - http://www.berlinmastering.co

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opcode66
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Re: Vinylrecorder VS vinilium for dubplates and lacquer

Post: # 30665Unread post opcode66
Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:16 pm

pellegrino707 wrote:i really would like to do an internship in some studio, but seems to be impossible. Nobody want to have an apprentice in the own cutting room...
I've tried in a lots of mastering studios in Europe. I think that some cutting engineers want to keep their knowledge for them...
Thus the only way that i've found to start to cut vinyl is the dubplate (small) business. I hope to find the money to buy a Neumann lathe soon!!
It isn't about protecting knowledge.... It is about protecting gear. Specifically, the cutterhead. If you don't know what you are doing then it is really easy to damage the cutterhead. On a Neumann, that repair is 3K USD minimum and 6K USD maximum. And, you can't cut for however many months it takes to have it repaired. For a business whose primary source of income is the cutting lathe in operation, that is too risky of a gamble.

If you broke someone's cutterhead, would you be able to pay for the repairs? Would you be able to keep the business afloat financially until the cutterhead was repaired and back in operation? If the answer is no, then you shouldn't expect much from lathe owners. This is people's livelihoods. It's not about denying anyone of information. That is why this site is so popular. A lot of people share knowledge here.

You could likely get interns at normal mastering studios. But, unless you are willing to put up the cash for a lathe and put your own money on the line, you likely won't find an internship opportunity in a cutting room.

In the past, engineers who worked for years and were the best were hand selected to learn how to cut. When one cutter retired, they trained the next. But, this was something people earned. After years of proving themselves in the studio and with mastering audio. This is not something that studios went ahead and did with someone with little to no experience. Mostly because it costs money to train someone. And, there is a risk of damage to the gear and the associated costs of fixing.

I've offered this before. I'll offer it again. To date, no one has taken me up on this. If someone wants to give me at least a 10K deposit, I will teach you to cut. I will let you cut on my lathe. Any materials you use you pay for out of the 10K deposit. So, styli, dubs, label stickers, sleeves, anything you use, you pay for. Anything you break, you pay for. After you feel you know how to cut and want to end the training, I will refund the deposit minus the amount for any materials, my time, and any damage to the lathe. That way, I'm covered if you break something. And, I'm not paying out of pocket to teach you to cut records. You could learn everything you ever wanted to know and then some.

This knowledge is available to anyone who SERIOUSLY wants it. Anyone who wants it handed to them, well, you get the idea...
Cutting, Inventing & Innovating
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Re: Vinylrecorder VS vinilium for dubplates and lacquer

Post: # 30666Unread post opcode66
Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:22 pm

SUNBEARS wrote:Also, it will be hard to create a competitive Master without his "Automatic Groove Distance Controller." (You will have to wait for this as well) Your masters will always end up being quieter than anyone cutting on a Neumann lathe without this unit. However, this is not the case when cutting plastic. You have actually cut LOUDER on plastic more easily and you can with acetate, in my experience, without the variable pitch module.
This doesn't make sense. The "Automatic Groove Distance Controller" is a simple pitch computer. It is just packing grooves tightly. It is allowing you to make longer sides. You can cut as loud as you want without it. But, you will eat up available space much faster than you would with it.

Here is the part that makes no sense to me. Pitch computers don't account in any way for the material being cut. So, it would work the same for plastic as it would for lacquer. That is completely separate from how the cutterhead cuts the two materials. Cutting louder isn't directly tied to using a ptich computer or not.

You can cut loud into plastic. You can cut loud into lacquer. You can do this with or without a pitch computer. The only difference between each scenario is how much time you can fit on the disc.
Cutting, Inventing & Innovating
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tragwag
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Re: Vinylrecorder VS vinilium for dubplates and lacquer

Post: # 30720Unread post tragwag
Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:11 am

also in it's regular state, the VR pitch system is fixed pitch.
making lathe cuts on a Presto 6N, HIFI stereo cuts on vinylrecorder
at Audio Geography Studios, Providence, RI USA
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Re: Vinylrecorder VS vinilium for dubplates and lacquer

Post: # 30726Unread post opcode66
Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:50 pm

Yes. Correct. Variable pitch is the sole function of the Automatic Groove Distance Controller. Without it, you cut only fixed pitch.

Variable pitch means more recording time for the same volume level.
Cutting, Inventing & Innovating
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Re: Vinylrecorder VS vinilium for dubplates and lacquer

Post: # 31225Unread post SUNBEARS
Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:49 pm

Hey guys! just saw yer replies. Thanks for your insight!
The loudness war is over, if you want it! - http://www.berlinmastering.co

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Re: Vinylrecorder VS vinilium for dubplates and lacquer

Post: # 31227Unread post SUNBEARS
Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:00 am

But I will add this.. just to clarify for ya!! Make some sense for ya!!

Correct me if I am mistaken, but if you want to cut a certain volume, you must allow yourself a certain groove depth (for tracking) and groove distance so groove aint slamming into each other. If I was cutting an LP that contained lots of dynamics, but was on the long side of a program, say, 25 mins a side, but I wanted to keep my peak level at around 0b, I could not do this without the variable pitch module. I would have to turn down the volume to compensate for the fact that my grooves have to stay constant a certain width apart for that LOUD sections, even if the majority of my program is quiet. - that is where the Variable pitch comes in handy. We dont need a large groove distance during quiet parts, so this allows us to CRAM more time on to a side without turning down.

For example.. I couldn't cut the newest coldplay LP (as practice of course) at the same volume as the original release because, well.. no variable pitch.

Didn't mean to confuse.

Thanks yall!

Cheers,
Jonathan
The loudness war is over, if you want it! - http://www.berlinmastering.co

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