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opcode66
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Re: Audiodisc Name Change

Post: # 25587Unread post opcode66
Thu May 23, 2013 9:03 pm

I guess I shouldn't have been so skeptical. I stand corrected. Sorry. They do in fact make two different formulations. Interesting.

The most fascinating tidbit was learning that the 12" dubs I've been using were simply rejects from the production of masters. But, wouldn't those be for 10" releases? I didn't think there were that many 10" releases. You produce that many 12" masters that the rejects are enough to supply the dub market. Wow.

Do you have 14" masters that are rejects? I would buy those too for test cut. I have a great tonearm on my lathe and upgraded the monitor section of my amp rack. So, monitoring 14" discs on the lathe is no problem. In fact I prefer it. I would buy your 14" rejects at reduced cost.

Obviously I love what you all do. I have never had a complaint.
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Apollo
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Re: Audiodisc Name Change

Post: # 25589Unread post Apollo
Fri May 24, 2013 12:46 am

We reserve the 14s only as Masters, we will not sell them as anything but professional grade, sorry. :)
... and actually, Dubs should only be used for reference, or test cuts, Masters are what are supposed to be used for anything more than that.
We do produce a lot of all sizes and have overrun lacquer that we sometimes will use to do a fill in run of Dubs in 10 and 12 if demand is high. We have also been known to transfer Masters into Dub inventory if we overstock in Master inventory. I try not to do to often because sometimes people may notice the quality difference on a future box of Dubs that is not as perfect as the last box that was really Masters... :)
Apollo / Transco

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Dub Studio
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Re: Audiodisc Name Change

Post: # 25590Unread post Dub Studio
Fri May 24, 2013 2:56 am

emidisc wrote: On the subject of substrates I like others have a stack of dubs that for one reason or another have been spoiled so is it no longer possible to recycle them like I understand companies did in the past?
This would also help the company win fans with "the green brigade"
Also the supply of cutting stylus without nichrome wire again would be no big deal and easy to add if required by the user.
+1

constantly lobbing spent dubs into skips as am running out of space...

I don't find the styluses to be such an expense issue, but applying the heating coil manually is no big deal - I always recycle mine, and have replaced them on many occasions

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tragwag
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Re: Audiodisc Name Change

Post: # 25598Unread post tragwag
Fri May 24, 2013 12:10 pm

just want to express my appreciation for the responses from Apollo on this forum.
I'm learning so much about the workings of lacquer masters; knowledge that most people don't have access to.
Very happy to know that Apollo has an interest in educating and informing those who use their products.
Thank you.
making lathe cuts on a Presto 6N, HIFI stereo cuts on vinylrecorder
at Audio Geography Studios, Providence, RI USA
http://www.audiogeography.com

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Dub Studio
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Re: Audiodisc Name Change

Post: # 25696Unread post Dub Studio
Wed May 29, 2013 9:28 am

Apollo wrote:We reserve the 14s only as Masters, we will not sell them as anything but professional grade, sorry. :)
... and actually, Dubs should only be used for reference, or test cuts, Masters are what are supposed to be used for anything more than that.
We do produce a lot of all sizes and have overrun lacquer that we sometimes will use to do a fill in run of Dubs in 10 and 12 if demand is high. We have also been known to transfer Masters into Dub inventory if we overstock in Master inventory. I try not to do to often because sometimes people may notice the quality difference on a future box of Dubs that is not as perfect as the last box that was really Masters... :)
What is the situation with 7 inch dubs? Are they being axed? I bought a box recently and they were very popular with my clients.

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Apollo
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Re: Audiodisc Name Change

Post: # 25711Unread post Apollo
Wed May 29, 2013 6:28 pm

We do and will continue to offer 7 inch sizes and do not intend to stop at any point.
All 7s are currently classified as Dubs and they will continue to be available in large or small hole as you specify. We no longer offer the 7 inch in a Master.
The 7 inch size is also the only remaining lacquer that is coated on the thinner substrate we called the lite series. It is .030 instead of the .040 used in the other sizes. The 7 inch size will also going to the standard .040 substrate in the not too distant future because of the difficulty and cost of getting substrates in the thinner thickness. I will try to keep everyone informed when we are going to make the change.
Apollo / Transco

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Dub Studio
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Re: Audiodisc Name Change

Post: # 25720Unread post Dub Studio
Thu May 30, 2013 5:02 am

That's great news! Thanks :D

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Steve E.
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Re: Audiodisc Name Change

Post: # 25801Unread post Steve E.
Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:03 pm

Hi Terry!

Emphasis mine....
Apollo wrote:We have not changed the formulations used for decades although at times we will offer variations for specific applications. For instance, we were using a variation of our formula that made the lacquer harder for a while on our lite series for playback and longevity.
The past tense "were" (instead of "are") is troubling to me.

Can you go into a little detail on the current reference lite situation? I am under the impression (and I sure hope it is true) that you are still offering a harder formulation for discs that are intended as multiple play "final products." Sam explained to me on the phone that they are not called "lites" anymore (due to now using the thicker .040 substrate/metal core) , but some sort of alternate dubplate product.

Also, I understand that this new product always has two holes--not great for those of us who want to stick a label on the thing and have it stay pretty.

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Re: Audiodisc Name Change

Post: # 25808Unread post Steve E.
Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:44 am

Update: Here's some info on an estimate I just received. Note the two different line items:

03-012-200 12" Dub Disc
03-012-200 12" Dub Disc (hard lacquer)
*** we no longer carry the 12" RL (Reference Lite) series. We now have what are called 12" Hard Lacquer Dubs.

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opcode66
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Re: Audiodisc Name Change (Apollo Dubplates, Reference Lites

Post: # 25819Unread post opcode66
Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:01 pm

I would be interested in these Hard Lacquer discs for sure. I liked the 12" RerenceLite discs I got. I was bummed they don't sell anymore.
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Apollo
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Re: Audiodisc Name Change (Apollo Dubplates, Reference Lites

Post: # 25827Unread post Apollo
Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:04 am

Hi everybody,
Good questions and I can see how it can be confusing. The quote should not say we are now offering instead of lites, that is incorrect. We do not offer a hard lacquer as a regular product choice any longer, but may again in the future.
An explanation of what is happening now - Since we have offered hard lacquer before and there seems to be some of you all that still want it, I have been experimenting around with ways to offer this and possible other specialized lacquer formulations. This is not easy as it is expensive and difficult to do. For instance, when Lites were being offered before as a product, they were inspected and sold as specialized Masters. We kept the price low to see if a market would build but it never did. We sold so very few and they were so problematic to produce, we ended up replacing many of them. (The biggest production issue was the thinner substrate because it warped so easily. ) The lites were a big loss of money for us and I know they frustrated many of you too.
Still, the lacquer tested well and I did not want to completely give up on the idea of using this harder lacquer formulation since it was well received from those who used it. This led me to using it from time to time for experimental product runs. Since we have to make lacquer in such large batches I sometimes use the rest of the batch on our normal substrate thickness of stock and make this available as Dubs. I do not make it often enough or in large enough quantities to offer it in the quality we would require for single hole Masters - so it is a double hole Dub when we have some available.
In short, we do not have them all the time, but I try to keep some on hand for testing. If this hard lacquer is something you would prefer, please ask when ordering and we will be sure to send them if we have them.
Apollo / Transco

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Dub Studio
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Re: Audiodisc Name Change (Apollo Dubplates, Reference Lites

Post: # 25832Unread post Dub Studio
Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:29 am

I think hard dubs will always be preferred, except in cases where they are supplied as a reference dub prior to the cutting of master lacquers, where it would make sense to use the same formula, in case it imparted a different sound to the recording. In all other cases I would imagine harder cuts are preferred due to longevity. I would love to cut more acetate dubs, but the simple economic truth is that people wanting harder dubs are likely to opt for plastic cuts even if the sound quality does take a bit of a hit...

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EmAtChapterV
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Re: Audiodisc Name Change (Apollo Dubplates, Reference Lites

Post: # 26037Unread post EmAtChapterV
Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:43 pm

Just curious, what is the Shore Hardness of the regular versus the hard lacquer, versus regular pressed vinyl?

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Apollo
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Re: Audiodisc Name Change (Apollo Dubplates, Reference Lites

Post: # 26078Unread post Apollo
Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:45 am

Good question, and the answer is I cannot find the data. We did those test years ago and we were more concerned with the playback tests where we measured the degradation of sound over multiple playbacks. (The "hard" lacquer degraded at a slower rate than the regular lacquer). Unfortunately our tests were done many years back and the data was probably kept on an older computer. Most likely when we updated computers, it was decided that test data was not considered important enough for archiving.
Apollo / Transco

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Re: Audiodisc Name Change (Apollo Dubplates, Reference Lites

Post: # 26165Unread post jtransition
Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:20 pm

Hello Terry nice to see you here ,
The problem with the move to the Audio disc brand name is we can no longer tell the difference by serial number whether it is manufactured from the Transco or Apollo formula, As you know they need different amounts of heat for a clean cut so test cuts can now only be reliably done on a good lacquer which is the same brand as the intended final master disc.
Regards

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Re: Audiodisc Name Change (Apollo Dubplates, Reference Lites

Post: # 26259Unread post jtransition
Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:46 pm

@Terry
Is there any way you can code the dubs with an A-T. At the end of the serial number as this would help a lot.
Regards

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Apollo
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Re: Audiodisc Name Change (Apollo Dubplates, Reference Lites

Post: # 26301Unread post Apollo
Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:45 am

Brand stamping for Dubs turned out to be a very difficult and expensive thing to do. We really ran into problems by doing this in the past.
We produce Apollo and Transco on ever changing schedules to meet demand for Masters. For several weeks I may not have any of one brand or the other that I get any dubs. For a long while I was filling in with Masters when demand outstripped supply for one brand or the other. This was killing us in expenses and I needed to change how we offered Dubs. We do seem to be able to meet dub demand as long as I combine the brands so that is what is happening now.
A little thing to understand on why we have trouble putting the quality code on Dubs by brand is that the actual quality code punching is done just before the discs are boxed. We do this so they can age as long as possible before boxing. Even if I was storing them by brand, it would not work out for punching. The quality code takes a while to set up in the punch press and is done by hand. Once the quality code is entered into a punch press each disc is hand punched. It would not be feasible to be changing the punch for alternating brands when getting dubs ready to ship.
If you are punching many discs of one brand and batch, (like we have with a Master run), this works out well. With Dubs, there are such varying amounts of each Brand and batch it was just not economical to continue doing this.
Apollo / Transco

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Re: Audiodisc Name Change (Apollo Dubplates, Reference Lites

Post: # 26312Unread post emidisc
Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:54 pm

I'm sure that we are all agreed its interesting to get all the info regarding the problems when manufacturing masters/dubs direct from the source.
Just one point raised in a earlier post regarding the re-cycling of used dubs/masters ie re-coating the substrates is this at all viable? I'm thinking along the lines of people with used discs correctly stripping them to reduce shipping? Then returning them to the supplier for credit against new dubs or stylus as an alternative to just scrapping them?
Surely the aluminium substrate as some value.

Emidisc

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Apollo
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Re: Audiodisc Name Change (Apollo Dubplates, Reference Lites

Post: # 26313Unread post Apollo
Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:41 pm

Sorry I missed that part earlier. I appreciate the question and am actively looking and working on ways to recycle or reuse the materials for our industry.
On the aluminum substrates, we actually started a pilot program giving credit for returned substrates. I used a few cutting houses for the test and although the program had merit, we ran into several problems. First, it is just very expensive to ship the substrates back. Second, we end up doing more inspection and work for polishing than we do on a raw blank. I was still ok with that, but the last couple of issues really makes it difficult. The hole leaves flakey parts of lacquer that are difficult to clean out. This is much like when our punch press bit is dull, it leaves little flakes that sometimes are not apparent yet like to come off in shipping sticking to the surface. :( Also when we re-punch, if it is not a perfect center hit, we have a slightly oblong hole that tends to cause unhappy cutting engineers and also results in flaking of lacquer bits.
Unfortunately, I end up sending them to an aluminum recycle facility as scrap aluminum.
I have not given up on the idea but for now I have not been able to make it work out for our mutual benefit.
Apollo / Transco

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Re: Audiodisc Name Change

Post: # 28191Unread post philbrown
Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:44 pm

Apollo wrote:Hi Guys,
Sorry I didn't see this thread before. Let me first start out by explaining we really do not manufacture Dubs. A Dub by definition is a Master that has not made the cut. (sorry for the pun) as a Master for either visual or fidelity in our quality inspection. These discs are still very good so instead of rejecting them completely, these Dubs, or "seconds", are punched with two holes and are sold at a reduced price without the guarantee of the single sided Masters.
When we acquired Transco, we decided it was very important to keep their formula as it was so we spent a huge amount of time and resources to develop segregated tanks, filters, and pipes for the Transco product. Since we are now manufacturing two separate formulas, Apollo and Transco, we decided to use the Audiodisc name for Dubs to keep from confusing which lacquer was being used for dubs. (Audiodisc is a trademark name under Apollo and as pointed out has been around for a long time). We have not changed the formulations used for decades although at times we will offer variations for specific applications. For instance, we were using a variation of our formula that made the lacquer harder for a while on our lite series for playback and longevity. We have also not had to modify formulas due to regulations. Regulations have always been a threat to production but we work very hard to stay on top this.
Understanding that we have to two lines that spin off dubs, we could not keep enough stock to offer a choice of dubs being Apollo or Transco when they were boxed. Keeping separate inventories and boxing Dubs by brand was just too expensive. In order to keep cost down, we just used a new box and labeled it Audiodisc. This leaves the Masters as always Apollo or Transco, and Audiodiscs are a blend of the Apollo or Transco discs that fall out of Master production.
Hope this helps with the understanding.
Those of us with long memories will remember back when both Audio and Transco got their material from Randolph in New Jersey. In the mid 70s Randolph had problems and both Audio and Transco could not produce a good disc. At one point we were down to one box of 14s.
I was cutting at CBS and we had the global reach to get some Pyrals, the first I'd ever seen.
Pulled out chestnuts out of the fire.

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