Question for dub cutters (legality)

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Chris
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Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 17636Unread post Chris
Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:22 pm

Hope this is in the correct section.....

To those who cut one off dubplates/pvc plates etc:

If I was to come and ask you to cut a wav that I'd bought from a dl store that wasn't available on vinyl, a one off, just for my own DJ use. Would you request the authors permission?

The way I see it I wouldn't write and ask the author/copyright owner if it's ok to burn it onto a CD to play in a club (although this is probably on dodgy ground too), but wondered what the guys cutting these things view/practice was?

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re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 17639Unread post piaptk
Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:08 am

I don't think most dub cutters would consider it their responsibility to play royalty/piracy police. According to Peter Kings literature, he'll cut whatever you want, but it is your responsibility to fill out the appropriate paperwork and pay the required royalties...

However, given the current musical business climate, I doubt you will have anyone coming after you with a lawsuit over a one-off dub.

That being said, if you are trying to make 500 copies of a bootleg through a pressing plant, that could be a totally different story, especially after that British plant got raided.

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mossboss
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re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 17640Unread post mossboss
Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:34 am

Hard one? Not really Doing that, one does offend the act or statute
I suppose is a case of what would happen If I do it you are asking
So if i would I get caught and if so what would the consequences be
The fact remains that it is an infringement One is allowed to copy for his own use but copy and play in a club so as to earn money from that tune is certainly a different case
Any way this is not the place to ask as you will get all kinds of responses the place to ask is the label or artist I can assure you it would be a much stronger case if the response was positive from the artist if say the publisher or label had a go at you This is not an easy are of law look at napster gnutela and the like sites which have come and gone
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re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 17649Unread post concretecowboy71
Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:46 am

I would read this:

http://www.riaa.com/physicalpiracy.php?content_selector=piracy_online_the_law

As a cutter, I believe that I do not have the right to make a mechanical copy of music I have not been given the right to make.

I personally would not do this kind of record unless given the proper paperwork.

Would you get caught for doing this, probably not, but I would not risk my business for making a one-off for somebody.
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Chris
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re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 17669Unread post Chris
Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:11 am

Cheers for the replies.

I get what you are saying about the legalities of making a copy to play in a club (unauthorised public performace etc), but it was my understanding (perhaps incorrectly though) that the venue pay for the right to play music in the club (think it's to the PPL in UK), which is why I'm always very unsure about the legalities.

How would you treat promos - a lot of labels that used to promo heavily on vinyl don't anymore, so would it be a problem to cut a track which was obviously sent with the intention of being played in clubs etc for a DJ who only plays vinyl.

I know this forum is far more concerned with the technical aspects of cutting, but I thought perhaps a few on here would have that knowledge or experience, so I wondered if anyone had come across any cases or precedents. :)

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re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 17670Unread post petermontg
Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:17 am

Chris wrote:
I get what you are saying about the legalities of making a copy to play in a club (unauthorised public performace etc), but it was my understanding (perhaps incorrectly though) that the venue pay for the right to play music in the club (think it's to the PPL in UK), which is why I'm always very unsure about the legalities.
I ran venue/social club for a number of years. We paid our royalties for the music we played in background. It was always up to DJ/performer to sort their own royalties and am sure this is common practice throughout Europe.
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re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 17673Unread post Nickou
Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:31 am

concretecowboy71 wrote:I would read this:

http://www.riaa.com/physicalpiracy.php?content_selector=piracy_online_the_law

As a cutter, I believe that I do not have the right to make a mechanical copy of music I have not been given the right to make.
.
so I think you can ... inside europe you can ...US , I don t know

if it is the same procedure than in france , mechanical copies means pressing
you can ask 100 tests ( or 99 I don t remember ) without any authorisacion of mechanical copies.
That does not mean than you can do what you want with the music of somebody else ...
I agree with mossboss, you have to speak with the artist / label

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mossboss
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re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 17679Unread post mossboss
Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:57 am

Just to add a bit more meat to the argument a
There was a comment about places where a DJ is doing a gig paying for a license to an authority or whoever in that country so as to look after royalties and the DJ can cut duplicate whatever Not quite correct
This really gives them a license for public broadcast from existing sources it is a blank licence paid once a year to the body which than distributes this money to various artists or starving ones or registered ones in some rather crazy way which I never understood
In my view it's really a case of feeding a bunch of fat cats who somehow convinced the rest that they should be the guys administering this with a good reward for doing so of course an anti piracy unit to go with it it's always the case
It gives the "body" credibility and protects people from prosecution even though it is a private concern who collects the money and has no authority to sue but can call on the authorities to do so and they do
Any way it is what it is they issue a public broadcast licence which is not issued say to a radio station who submit a play list and pay specific sums to specific artist to specific labels who are than the beneficiaries of that income
It is done as a convinience to all concerned and a fee is charged for admin
There are countries who have a Mechanical reproduction license fee which can be had quite easily by just paying
You are than after the money being paid are issued with Tax stamps which are placed in every copy made
This is available in most EU countries If there is any inconsistencies some people pick the easy one and just go ahead with it
Any disputes really result to a settlement of sorts but there is no way the person involved is in breach or pursued in any way or form as he has paid the fee per copy
In cases where the artist is not registered or known to the stamp issuing authority that can be a little dangerous so it is best that the artist or his estate if is no longer with us be contacted so as to get the green light
There are some places that none of that is required like China but we are not there and there are some places that there is suh thing as " an orphan" licence This works in an interesting way and it goes something like this
Given that you prove that you did you best to find the intellectual property right owners they may or most likely will issue you with a license to
reproduce material after paying whatever fee is required Assuming it's for say 1000 CD that may be say $500 or about .50 cents each
The money is held in trust for the artist or any one that's legally entitled to it for some time if it is not claimed It is than provided to artist seeking grants for projects
Not sure it is a bad or a good thing but the amount is not that significant for it's 17.5% of the wholesale price for records or cd,s and cassettes
It's not a breaking the bank sum so here we are, in
In a snapshot is not that hard to get a mechanical reproduction license so as to avoid legal issue in the EU and most other countries except in the USA where there are houses who will find the publisher and owner of the material This than will allow you or direct you to where you can get a licence
If there is a label or a major involved of course they have they own team/dept for it and I do know that in quite a few cases you get the green light for vinyl or for a lathe cut for no fee at all and in some instances people have had an absolute NO
Do the all of the above just to be on the safe side but I would suggest that you ask for an email confirming any arrangements you have made just to be on the safe side
Hope this helps
Cheers
Hanical
Chris

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re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 17681Unread post petermontg
Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:41 pm

mossboss wrote:Just to add a bit more meat to the argument a
There was a comment about places where a DJ is doing a gig paying for a license to an authority or whoever in that country so as to look after royalties and the DJ can cut duplicate whatever Not quite correct
This really gives them a license for public broadcast from existing sources it is a blank licence paid once a year to the body which than distributes this money to various artists or starving ones or registered ones in some rather crazy way which I never understood
I thought my post was clear enough. maybe my english needs work. maybe need to start posting Irish.

Rith mé ionad / chlub sóisialta ar feadh roinnt blianta. Ár n-íocfar dleachtanna ar son an ceol a bhí againn sa chúlra. Bhí sé i gcónaí suas le DJ / ghníomhaí a shórtáil a gcuid féin agus táim cinnte ríchíosanna is cleachtas coitianta ar fud na hEorpa. :lol:

Edit: I have been handed contracts on copyright for gigs in Germany to sign, simple contracts that what is played is all own material so venue can cover their A*S.

Take mossmans advice you can't go wrong. last thing you want is some label exc. trying to screw you for fringement.
Last edited by petermontg on Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 17682Unread post mossboss
Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:29 pm

Hey Where is it that I am advising anything that is illegal
If you read my advise is, one would go wrong I am saying it is not correct Cannot do simple
If they have a license it is only so they can public broadcast and not to cut or copy material
May be it's not clear enough Argh well go and see a copyright lawyer and pay him a wad of money for advise When someone pays the advise is much better even if it is exactly the same, is it not?
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Chris

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Post: # 17683Unread post petermontg
Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:37 pm

That was in agreement with your previous post. I should have done the edit :roll:
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re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 17721Unread post opcode66
Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:27 pm

I'm not going to speak about the legality of this question. But, I do feel it necessary to make a few remarks with respect to the dance music industry. Electronic and dance music still makes up a fair amount of vinyl pressings and dubs. So, it is important to look at things from their perspective. We are talking about making a single copy of a track. Not bootlegging.

In this industry the only way to make sales on your tracks is if they are played. You have to be known somehow. As was mentioned, a lot of labels sent out promos in the past. They did that so the promos would be played out and people would hear the tracks and want them. So, as a label, if a dj purchased my track and had it cut to a record and played it out at the clubs then I would be very pleased! That is the best kind of promotion for that track and the label. It is more likely that others will now purchase this track.

The next point to be made is that as a DJ these days, you likely purchase a fair amount of your music from one of the online sources like Traxsource or Beatport or Juno. They EXPECT you to download your purchased track and BURN IT to a CDR for use at the clubs. That's right, they expect you to make a copy of the track! So, what is the difference between copying the track to a CDR or to a Reference Dub? There isn't any. No one would care which medium you choose to copy the music to and play it from.

The final point to be made is that DJ's buy music from small labels. They are not the money hungry, lawsuit happy juggernauts that the big labels are (or were). They are not going to go after someone who has made a personal copy of the music they purchased from the label. They want people to play their music out and if that means burning a copy of it, so be it.
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re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 21576Unread post dmz007
Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:11 pm

I remember reading somewhere that its fine as long as the copy is intended for "private use". In my opinion music is like any other tangible product and as soon as you buy it, you should have the freedom to do what you want with it as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else (this applies with pretty much everything in life). Of course if you were to sell it then that might be a bit different.

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re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 21579Unread post mossboss
Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:23 pm

How does that work Than?
If you buy it you can do whatever you like with it!!
If you sell it that may be different
Phew
Great I am now enlightened
Mate get to read the disclaimer on the CD or Vinyl or whatever medium you are buying
When you buy it, its not "yours"
You are paying a fee to listen to it in simple terms, and that's about it
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re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 21581Unread post Angus McCarthy
Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:00 pm

opcode66 wrote:The next point to be made is that as a DJ these days, you likely purchase a fair amount of your music from one of the online sources like Traxsource or Beatport or Juno. They EXPECT you to download your purchased track and BURN IT to a CDR for use at the clubs. That's right, they expect you to make a copy of the track! So, what is the difference between copying the track to a CDR or to a Reference Dub? There isn't any. No one would care which medium you choose to copy the music to and play it from.
That is a very interesting angle on the question. It should be simple enough to get a clarification from the distributor websites as to how they feel about it. If they explicitly allow mechanical copying of the track in CD form as part of their licensing agreement, there should be no legal reason to stop you from making a reference dub.

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re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 21585Unread post emorritt
Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:15 pm

I agree with opcode; I've wrestled with this before, but I don't do the multiple disc "runs" of plastic discs, just lacquer cuts of whatever someone wants on only one or two discs. The customer nor I are going to get rich off that and that's what the lovely RIAA, publisher organizations and record companies are going to look at. Even those on the board that do runs of many plastic discs are only creating something that's limited. If you cut a master and try to press it in the hundreds or thousands of copies, that's when you'll attract the attention of the corporate attorneys with dollar signs sparkling in their eyes. :twisted: That is, if you can even get a copyrighted piece pressed. Most plants nowadays won't do something that they might get tangled in with. I have done lots of jukebox records of new music that some collector's kid wants to play on dad's old juke. Simply changing format to me isn't going to have Kylie Minogue's or Sarah Bareilles' lawyers hunting me down. If a customer asked me to cut 10 or 20 copies of something, I'd probably say, uh, no. But one or two I have no problem doing, especially if it's something that isn't available on a grooved record.

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re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 21598Unread post mossboss
Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:47 pm

Absolutely right
For one or two copies for"personal" use
That has been well established in courts of law over many years
Also downloading and burning or cutting or cassette would be Ok
No big deal really
To make it clear enough
Dont bootleg for profit
Thats all
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re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 21615Unread post Aussie0zborn
Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:31 am

If you bought a WAV file you would probably want to store it in some non-digital medium that cant be deleted A dubplate would be a good way of doing that.

Cutting one dubplate is like burning a CD. No big deal really.

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Re: Question for dub cutters

Post: # 23234Unread post Steve E.
Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:06 pm

Great question, great thread. I've been thinking about this topic a lot.

I'd probably make sure I was legally covered by having the client sign something affirming that they bought the source copy of the music, and that this dub was simply for "personal use." I can't imagine lawyers coming after me, but it would put me at ease.

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Re: Question for dub cutters

Post: # 23648Unread post audadvnc
Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:52 pm

My feeling is - you can't be legally covered for anything. If they wanna nail you for throwing your toenail clippings in the recycling bin instead of the trash, they'll do it.

Unless you're a major league banker, in which case the law is whatever you say it is...

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