Thanks Apollo...

Topics regarding professional record cutting.

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concretecowboy71
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Thanks Apollo...

Post: # 17168Unread post concretecowboy71
Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:55 pm

...for raising your prices yet again.

Too bad you seem to have a monopoly and we have no competition to help keep prices stable.

Yours truly
Clint
Cutting Masters in Bristol,Virginia, USA
Well Made Music / Gotta Groove Records

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dietrich10
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Post: # 17169Unread post dietrich10
Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:11 pm

I am curious if they raised their prices at all between say 1994 and 2007.Before resurgence
cutting lacquers-vms70 system

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concretecowboy71
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Post: # 17170Unread post concretecowboy71
Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:15 pm

You would think new demand would cause price to remain steady due to volume.

It is also a bad PR move to announce a holiday promotion at the same time you tell us you are bending us over!
Cutting Masters in Bristol,Virginia, USA
Well Made Music / Gotta Groove Records

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opcode66
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Post: # 17171Unread post opcode66
Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:50 pm

The margins are slim enough as is. This doesn't help. I guess everyone is doing what they need to right now. Better to have a company still producing lacquers and stylus than none at all!
Cutting, Inventing & Innovating
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piaptk
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Post: # 17183Unread post piaptk
Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:38 pm

concretecowboy71 wrote:You would think new demand would cause price to remain steady due to volume.

It is also a bad PR move to announce a holiday promotion at the same time you tell us you are bending us over!
Well, at least they are giving us notice before raising prices, AND they are giving away a stylus when you stock up to avoid the price hike.

andybee
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Post: # 17184Unread post andybee
Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:42 pm

oh, yes, thanks apollo!
3 years ago: 10" approx. 12 Euro, now, nearly 20 Euro....
If you cut approx. 100x 10" per month, thats 800 euros loss
each month, if you don´t raise your prices....
:evil:

as flo said: we need another laquer manufacturer!

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jjgolden
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Post: # 17187Unread post jjgolden
Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:09 pm

I wonder what it would take to get some former employees of the Pyral operation in France to pass on some knowledge or insight to branch off and start up production again. From what I hear, their lacquers were top notch.

I know here in the US and especially California, there's a lot of environmental regulations/taxes that are a major hurdle.
Not sure if it's as tight over there?


JJG

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opcode66
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Post: # 17188Unread post opcode66
Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:41 pm

Anyone have a formula? That is the real proprietary knowledge. Having aluminum discs made and applying a flat coat to them doesn't seem terribly difficult.

I think you would also need to start making stylus too. That seems to be a more delicate operation.
Cutting, Inventing & Innovating
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dietrich10
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Post: # 17189Unread post dietrich10
Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:44 pm

opcode66 wrote:Anyone have a formula? That is the real proprietary knowledge. Having aluminum discs made and applying a flat coat to them doesn't seem terribly difficult.

I think you would also need to start making stylus too. That seems to be a more delicate operation.
the machine to do the work will take some time plus $$$
cutting lacquers-vms70 system

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piaptk
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Post: # 17190Unread post piaptk
Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:01 pm

I'm really kind of shocked that there is NO ONE who can make or resharpen styli. It was no problem in the 40s and 50s, so what has changed? I have 50 or 60 busted long shanks that I'd LOVE to have resharpened.

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jjgolden
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Post: # 17191Unread post jjgolden
Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:39 pm

I agree. It's a jewelers job, and there are skilled jewelers out there to be found. They just need the exacting standards to adhere to for reshaping the facet etc...that and a little R&D feedback from us I guess. At least 1 re-furbishment is realistic... If refurb styli were available at half price that would certainly help us out. Being able to get 20-40 hours out of a single stylus tool is worth investigating to find a solution to the issue.

If the momentum of the record resurgence is to continue, there are elements of the cutting industry that need to play catchup and or be reintroduced.
With a monopoly in the stylus/lacquer area, there's not much incentive to improve or refine things right?, only enough to keep up with the current demand.

JJG

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mossboss
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Post: # 17197Unread post mossboss
Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:08 am

Ok Guys Who is up for kicking in $$$$ on an even share basis to set up a lacquer line?
Say 10 of us at $30 K each should see us getting close I would have thought
Any takers???
By the way None are left alive at Pyral if they are around they would be senile man thats for sure
They sold out to BASF who lost all the formulae many moons ago wasted years on tracking that stuff down guys will not start doing it again
I had reasonable success getting some done in a very crude setup It is not as hard as it seems but than again it is like cutting on poly He He
There is a long and good thread here on this
The closest we got in getting some formulae was from Maistrow member here but he finished been full of piss and vinegar that after 5-6 months there he was still pissing it out but no formulae WTF
Diamond cutters would not waste they time for these styli been down that path as well
And any way styli are reasonable in price but Lacquers Mmmmmm
Cheers
Chris

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piaptk
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Post: # 17201Unread post piaptk
Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:19 pm

mossboss wrote: And any way styli are reasonable in price but Lacquers Mmmmmm
Styli are reasonable, but would be nice to do something with my ever growing pile of dead ones.
Last edited by piaptk on Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jjgolden
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Post: # 17202Unread post jjgolden
Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:43 pm

I'm all for a new lacquer line but man, what an ordeal that would be to orchestrate.

*I think re-tooling the stylus is a much more attainable goal at this point.
It would help offset the cost of lacquers, and that's something.

Start holding on to your spent styli...when the time comes we'll need a load of them to send this this illusive jeweler to work on!

JJG

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opcode66
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Post: # 17203Unread post opcode66
Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:17 pm

I saw this video a while ago. It shows how they make the lacquers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUGRRUecBik

The machinery used to make lacquers looks a lot like what they use to make layered chocolates/candies. If you've ever seen how they put a dark chocolate layer on a milk chocolate candy it looks almost the same. It is called curtain coating.

Here is a link to where there is some discussion on this topic.

http://www.audiobanter.com/archive/index.php/t-86601.html

Seems you do need a "clean room" for drying the discs in.
Cutting, Inventing & Innovating
Groove Graphics, VMS Halfnuts, MIDI Automation, Professional Stereo Feedback Cutterheads, and Pesto 1-D Cutterhead Clones
Cutterhead Repair: Recoiling, Cleaning, Cloning of Screws, Dampers & More
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mossboss
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Post: # 17205Unread post mossboss
Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:30 am

Yep thats about right but not required a positive pressure filtered air room will do the trick and only in the coating area
Any way a lacquer is a costly item a stylus is not really even if you get 20 album cuts out of it it is couple of bucks per side
Against this you have a lot of $ or £ or Euros per side on lacquers
The gear for sharpening styli is no that much in actual fact it is easily available and you can get a set up at less than say $5k for top of the range amateur gear that is very good
But than what are you going to pay the cutter polisher driving this thing?
Say $30 an hour so he needs to charge something like $15 each plus post there and back it is about $25-30 not that far really
Ok so you send 20 and they are $16 each great
Lacquers !! for sure they should be about $10-15 each guys not what we pay
But than again that is what monopolies do and so be it
Any takers on the new line?
Cheers
Chris

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fraggle
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Post: # 17226Unread post fraggle
Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:58 pm

mossy i really don't think they sharpen that kind of stylus with a faceting machine. i know for sure that they use a completely different machine for diamond and i reckon to get that fine finish they use something similar for sapphire too.

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cohearent
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Post: # 17230Unread post cohearent
Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:20 am

I think we should all be thankful the folks at Apollo are willing to deal with our cottage industry. I have helped them a few times in the past when they were having some quality issues and such and they are great folks.
Apollo is a small arm of GC. GC could probably survive quite nicely without Apollo Then where would we be?
Price increases are inevitable in this day and age. Between inflation and the EPA it ain't easy being in the chemical business, especially in California!
Am I happy about a price increase? NO.
Am I happy we have a company as quality conscious as Apollo. YES
God bless 'em!
Kevin Gray

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mossboss
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Post: # 17233Unread post mossboss
Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:23 am

fraggle wrote:mossy i really don't think they sharpen that kind of stylus with a faceting machine. i know for sure that they use a completely different machine for diamond and i reckon to get that fine finish they use something similar for sapphire too.
Hey Boris
Take a look at some you tube clips of Indian diamond cutters and polishers
That's where 80% of this work is done mate Sure get a price from the diamond mafia Ask Flo ask the Shanks ask Souri dont believe me
And guess what they use simpler stuff than facet cutters
Oh yea You been German most likely say India??? Well they been polishing diamonds for more than 500 years mate so here you are
So go and take a look mate you would be surprised
By the way I visited some cutters in India they will not do them as they are not jewel quality so they cannot make a dollar Very complex situation hard to explain but it has to do with the purchase of raw diamonds So another blank there man In the mean time Just spend 200 for dud diamonds or keep on buying the sapph's from the normal source At least they work and are fair priced Keep them any way It is not that they take a lot of space
Cheers
Chris

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fraggle
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Post: # 17234Unread post fraggle
Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:57 am

yeah i know most of the jewelery is polished in india but there is a difference between making them look good and polishing facets with an accuracy of 0.001 mm.
for jewelery you don´t need such high accuracy really because you cannot see it.
hmm pretty sure the vinylium ones, shank and ameise ones are made in Europe.(diamond)
don't you think the apollo sapphires are made in japan? i mean adamt is a Japanese company right?

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