International Vinyl Record Producers Association

Topics regarding professional record cutting.

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blacknwhite
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International Vinyl Record Producers Association

Post: # 9361Unread post blacknwhite
Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:24 pm

mossboss wrote:On another point we are not doing any promotion of the vinyl medium as a collective
In essence we are just sitting back watching the industry slowly getting smaller without us been active in promoting our product or the artists involved
May be its time for someone to start the" International Vinyl Record Producers Association" with contributions from all concerned so as to promote the medium
Any takers out there?
That's EXACTLY what I have been thinking.

But I am not a pro vinyl producer, so I felt it wasn't my place to suggest it until after I become a producer.

The assistance of vinyl ENTHUSIASTS could be solicited in this cause.... Go out, talk to collectors / enthusiasts, capture their excitement, make documentaries / videos / etc... That is my idea, anyway, but my camera is crappy, need to get a better (US $2k camera...) I think Andybee is already working on this avenue with a vid he's taking part in production of.

A MAJOR POINT OF CONTENTION between many both serious and casual vinyl record collectors I've talked to (sorry, I don't have numbers) and record makers I've seen: NOT ALL GENRES are alike, and shouldn't be cut alike. I'm not even talking about club singles vs. albums here; I'm just talking about long playing LP's, and about 7-inch singles.

For some genres (classic style jazz - new or old re-issue releases - and classic style rock, rockabilly, Neo-Swing, etc), I've talked with MANY end customers buying these records for the PURPOSE of playing on old high-end 1950's - 60's vacuum tube record players & jukes (for the 7-inch ones), often disappointed by skipping / mis-tracking.

If such a vinyl record producers association is formed, this SHOULD BE ADDRESSED - I believe it is a MAJOR UNTAPPED audience for new re-issue vinyl, BUT, these guys have Given Up on new vinyl, and say things like "New vinyl? Won't touch it. Been burned too many times. Spend all this time & money restoring classic tube sound systems (READ: lower-compliance pickups), then buy reissues of vintage 1950's-60s-70s vinyl, and it skips like crazy. No more." Sad.

To win back customers lost, collective decisions need to be made: Do vinyl producers want these people's business? If so, NEED to come up with some industry-wide TERM for this "new old" kind of cut: Like, "UNIVERSALLY COMPATIBLE VINYL (UCV) - Designed to play well on ALL Well-Adjusted stereo LP record players!!".

And a logo. Sort of like the old "RIAA" seal which used to appear on lots of albums in the 1960s - 70s. "UCV". "UNIVERSALLY COMPATIBLE VINYL".

I think you could win back lost business, in the certain target genres of music styles frequently bought to be played on older players - of course, those genres would need to be agreed upon.

Short term, tho: I have been restoring vintage tube players for years and have a good feel for what can & can't be tracked; could create a website with groove pictures taken from records of 1950's - 2000's, showing which track best, worst, or not at all, on these players.

producers & collectors should agree upon what genres these new requirements should be applied to. OBVIOUS Ones: Re-issues of 1950's-60s-70s material, and new bands playing in these older styles. These are the guys playing stuff on tube players! SOME are playing this stuff with modern "audiophile" $1,000 turntables that could track ANYTHING, but I believe AS MANY OR MORE are playing this stuff with classic original vintage players with less-compliant ceramic pickups.

WHY do people insist on playing stuff on old players? Don't get me started. PM me if you want an answer. They just do. And I'm one of them, 110%. I *hate* the sound of vinyl on anything else than a classic vintage system; hearing it on an original system is an INDESCRIBABLE EXPERIENCE you Can't get from a modern system which makes vinyl sound like freakin' CD's. WHY? Thats like asking, why do people like music? It's just vibrations of the air. Why would people pay for air vibrations? What's the meaning of life?...

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Why ask why; it is what it is: A NOTICEABLE portion of the potential vinyl market currently largely IGNORED.

COMPROMISE. That's what it's all about.

CAPITOL/EMI got it PERFECT with an "audiophile 180 gram" Blue Note re-issue series they did in the 1990's, Direct from ANALOG master tapes.

PERFECT CUTS! Perfect compromise! Audiophiles LOVE them! YET... they play PERFECTLY on old players, NO SKIPPING! See????? It CAN be done!!!

This should be used as a model for ALL reissues of 1950s-60s-70s stuff, for STARTERS! And, for *ALL* 7-inch 45 rpm singles of ALL genres, so they will actually play in jukeboxes!

I'd be glad to photograph & circulate groove pics of that seres of CAPITOL/EMI Blue Note reissue LP's; I bought several from that series.

They DISPROVE the "audiophiles" claims that if you "pander to a low-class audience" who wants to play vinyl on old 1950s-60s record players, then your end product will be crap. TOTALLY FALSE.

Short version: records in 1950s-60s-70s genres should be cut with less aggressive levels, slightly deeper / wider-spaced grooves, with "Universally Compatible Vinyl" logo & ad campaign, to win back lost vinyl format business by folks feeling "betrayed" by untrackable new vinyl pressings on their favorite players.

I don't think record producers realize how many complaints there are about this in these music styles since they don't hear these end customers, but it's common knowledge among the "classic equipment crowd" (which spends LOTS OF MONEY on vinyl) that they would love to buy reissues but they can't , cause they skip / mis-track on anything but newer players / magnetic pickups, so, thus, they are forced to seek out older pressings, or even originals, and pay HIGH PRICES, which they do... (I've been forced into the same corner, and can provide groove photos again)

THE OBVIOUS RETORT: The band paying you to cut vinyl wants it to sound exactly like a CD, and loud as possible, and they're the ones paying you to make the cut.

MY SUGGESTION: Either (1) if they're a metal or techno band, that's NOT the "target audience" for Universally Compatible Vinyl, so, it doesn't matter. OR, (2) If they ARE a vintage 1950's-style rockabilly band, or neo-swing band, or vintage 1970s-style punk band, then Just tell them: If they don't allow you to cut Universally Compatible Vinyl, which WILL sound different from the CD (That's the whole f***in POINT of vinyl, BECAUSE it sounds "warmer" / mellower than a CD!!!!), then if you don't cut it as UCV, end customers will get mad at the band because they can't play the record on their fave players which play ORIGINAL 1970's punk, or 1950's rockabilly, JUST FINE.

OK... I hate to post this before I've actually got my ducks in a row to go out and buy a new US $2k camera & start interviewing collectors to back up these claims; but, there it is... if you don't believe me, seek out these collectors and ask them Yourselves... and I don't mean just the Internet Record Collectors forum, I mean REAL person-to-person collectors at record swap meets, conventions, flea markets, etc, etc... The "haunts" of vinyl collectors....

ASK the bigtime 1950s-60s-70s vinyl collectors: Many feel VINYL HAS "LOST ITS SOUL" by trying to SOUND LIKE CD's, with Louder Cuts, and More and More Extreme Bass & Treble: JUST FINE for techno, dance, metal; NOT for 1950s-60s-70s classic genres.

NOT ALL RELEASES; some modern releases they "get it just right" (i.e. Capitol / EMI 1990's audiophile LPs). But Many other modern releases, not.

Let's consider the possibility of winning them back as customers. By creating & implementing standards for UCV / "classic-style vinyl". Then, advertising them as selling points to these groups of "classic vinyl" customers - "VINYL'S GOT IT'S SOUL BACK"!

- Bob

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blacknwhite
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Post: # 9366Unread post blacknwhite
Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:15 pm

OK: Proof is already out there, that there IS A MARKET for "Universally Compatible Vinyl" which will play on both old & new players:

What's one of the biggest music-sharing arenas on the internet today? YOUTUBE.

Go to Youtube, see for yourself, and TALK TO THOSE PEOPLE who posted these videos; there's your Market Research right here... These are just the thumbnails, but search youtube for "record player", "vintage turntable", "juke box", "garrard", "magnavox turntable", "Wurlitzer jukebox", etc, to find the vids these thumbnails go with... Ask the posters if they have problems with some brand new vinyl pressings of 1950s-60s-70s-style re-issues & new releases playing fine, and some skipping; ask if that's "Turning Them Off" to buying more modern vinyl; and you just MIGHT get an EARFUL...

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- Bob

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cymbalism
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Post: # 9369Unread post cymbalism
Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:19 am

the photos alone in this post make it worth every second of the read it is :)

i think the biggest gripe in the new record pressings is quality control. being a label owner myself, i thoroughly try my test presses on everything from a fisher price kids table to a crappy $100 pioneer table to my 1200s and my thorens and dual tables. granted i'm pressing electronic music and i'm not using a vintage deck but if something sounds amiss, i have them recut it. it's expensive but i don't want to put out a record that people can't play. i picked up the new pantera reissues from rhino and the "far beyond driven" lp has a pressing flaw on the second side first track, it's like the grooves aren't even there and the last track on side four also skips bad. ALL of them were like that according to various forums. same with the doors reissues - horrid compared to the original gold labeled elektra presses.

overcompression is the second bitch i have for modern records. records are supposed to sound warm, not distorted or muddy. the last metallica record is so bad i can't even listen to it. i buy loads of new records of all genres - soul, jazz, rock, metal, punk, etc. - and i'd say probably half of them i'm unhappy with but yet i keep buying and filing them away with my other 15,000 records.
all the best!
- tommie 'plan 9' emmi
poly-cut lathe cuts / cymbalism recordings

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cymbalism
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Post: # 9372Unread post cymbalism
Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:14 am

okay, just one more complaint:

i can deal with a little skip or a little over-compression - it happens, it's frustrating but it's tolerable...what i cannot handle anymore is misaligned presses. SOOOOO many records i've purchased over the past few years have been so badly misaligned, it's nearly impossible to tolerate it.

i think labels are in such a hurry to get their record out and make money off of the consumer that they forget some of the processing steps - either that or they're hiring people who really don't give a shit about records in general - it's just a job and paycheck for them. if i had the opportunity to work in a plant - even boxing them or something simple like that, i would be in honored. they should screen their employees and only hire those who have a record collection - period.

i mean seriously, i have thousands of records from super old 78s to brand new things now - decades of music and i can honestly say that i don't remember that many in my collection from even the 70s and 80s when they were pressing shotty quality records in the millions that are as off-centered as the ones today that are only pressed in a few thousand. it's laziness. how can one side of the killer's last album be pressed straight and the other so bad it looks like your tonearm is going thru a tug of war with the grooves on the platter. the last snow patrol double lp was like that, those pantera double lp sets are like that too - so not only is there pressing defects from skips and over-compression on those albums but they're off centered too!

the whole subject gets me irritated, do your job people so us who enjoy and support your record pressings can have faith that what we're investing in is quality stuff - not a waste of our time...
all the best!
- tommie 'plan 9' emmi
poly-cut lathe cuts / cymbalism recordings

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concretecowboy71
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Post: # 9373Unread post concretecowboy71
Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:29 am

I agree here also.

As the new guy on the block, It would be nice to have cutting standards that are up to date and agreed upon.

mossman has mentioned RIAA standards and I have tracked those down (I think). But a complete document done by a well informed modern group would also be a big help for young guys getting started.

Since the whole studio/apprentice system does not exist anymore, we have to find new ways to pass on knowledge and experience.

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mossboss
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VRPA Inc

Post: # 9374Unread post mossboss
Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:23 pm

Well that is the short version
OK
This is good stuff Really that is exactly the kind of promo the industry needs
Concrete man I suppose I can be mossman if I call you concrete man
man And yes you are right training and apprentiship has gone out of the window
It is the purpose of this forum to provide the help that is given out her freely in every aspect of this rather fascinating and gratifying which involves as much craft and trademanship as well as the bit of black art that makes every aspect of it satisfying to a very high degree
Good comments so far keep it up guys
Cheers
Chris

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concretecowboy71
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Post: # 9376Unread post concretecowboy71
Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:49 pm

Ha Ha...glad you got the joke!

Seeing as there are a limited amount of these machines out there, it is important to keep the knowledge base available to the newbies.

As I worked my way through this process I met a lot of nice people and some not so much.

I want to thank everybody here for their help. I just found out my first plates are being pressed today! I am very excited.

I nominate Cleveland, Ohio as the first convention site for the new organization!

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blacknwhite
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Post: # 9377Unread post blacknwhite
Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:13 pm

Anyone on here have any experience setting up a Non-profit organization (NPO)?

All I know is what I just read on this Wikipedia article...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-profit_organization

IS that how we want to set it up (nonprofit)? I see RIAA is now ".com", but the RIAA is very unpopular / "un-cool"; do we need to be more "cool" by being an NPO?... What would be the "cons"?

I see a lot of our purpose as being, to give out FREE advice to cutters, for the purpose of improving the overall "status" of vinyl records world-wide; and, as Mossboss said,
mossboss wrote:for someone to start the" International Vinyl Record Producers Association" with contributions from all concerned so as to promote the medium
If NPO, we could have books & vids & example discs to sell for covering expenses... (some freebies, some low-cost stuff; maybe soft copies of material free, printed copies & example discs at low cost...) Thoughts?

Once decided, we should reserve a web URL...

LET'S GO

- Bob

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Bonati
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Post: # 9382Unread post Bonati
Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:11 pm

Short version: records in 1950s-60s-70s genres should be cut with less aggressive levels, slightly deeper / wider-spaced grooves, with "Universally Compatible Vinyl" logo & ad campaign, to win back lost vinyl format business by folks feeling "betrayed" by untrackable new vinyl pressings on their favorite players.
Bob - no arguments here, would be happy to do it. I'm not cutting much dance music here so most of the time the levels are pretty conservative. But I also don't cut a lot of re-issue material - is there some specific unmodulated groove width-to-land ratio that would be "period correct" for this market, as a standard?

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blacknwhite
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Post: # 9384Unread post blacknwhite
Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:42 pm

Bonati wrote:Bob - no arguments here, would be happy to do it. I'm not cutting much dance music here so most of the time the levels are pretty conservative. But I also don't cut a lot of re-issue material - is there some specific unmodulated groove width-to-land ratio that would be "period correct" for this market, as a standard?
I will try to post 'scope pics, with some scale of measure, asap, which would provide examples, for the consideration of yourself & other cutters...

As far as "standard", I think the Blue Note 1990's Capitol / EMI 180g audiophile pressings would be a good place to start, since they got praise from BOTH audiophiles AND play perfectly on old players, so I'll try to photo those first, along with some good vintage originals...

Don't yet have a USB scope; been using jeweler's loupes, and non-camera-compatible microscope; will be ordering a USB scope within next couple of weeks. But first, will see if I can use what I have, to get useful pictures... If so, will post within next 2 days...

Need to do some re-budgeting of time & money - THANKS all who've posted, for giving this some serious consideration (on behalf of frustrated record collectors Everywhere)...

- Bob

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mossboss
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Groove width Skipping girls and all that

Post: # 9461Unread post mossboss
Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:47 pm

A little while ago I did post quite a bit on this matter Also I keep on harping on about the fact that making records is not easy not hard either
Training as well as apprentiship was standard those days
To be a press operator was kind of a promotion from being the guy that run the label punching out press as well as the granulator to crush up the rejects and flash
Now days people with a few dollars go out set up a plant and hope for the best until they run out of money and shut shop
There are a few plants that do quite a good job However there is no strict control and I am not going to say it all again
The reasons are in that post some time back
On another point as Bob says people want to play them on $20 T/T which is fine on the one hand and not so good on the other
It really points out the lack of promotion as well as the get them out the door attitude that some paople adopt
Any way we really need to see it from a different angle
The 200 odd contributors here will not be enough to do it
Cheers
Chris

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fusionkid
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Standards and things

Post: # 9868Unread post fusionkid
Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:58 pm

Just read thru this thread, i'm not involved in disc manufacture at all, but i do record new material, and buy/sell Vinyl. These points made are all entirely valid and a good idea, but looking at the bigger picture. The AES already set standards etc and they have the clout to make things happen. So maybe those of you that could make this happen should approach the AES and maybe form an affiliation or sub committee. Since, looking at the bigger picture still, the references to keeping the trade going and developing markets, part of the problem, in the UK anyway is the "closed" nature of the industry. You need to win people over/ get them enthused about it, not turn away interested parties, otherwise you're turning away the future people who could keep things going, and bring new ideas/ energy.
And maybe lobbying the AES to give more consideration to the enthusiasts, who i believe are playing an important role in the vinyl industry. Let's face it, there's probably been more experimentation and development carried out by enthusiasts in the last decade or two, than in the industry. (Whats the newest vinyl related patent? I've seen 1980)
P.S. My Technics1210+stanton500AL always plays Everything! (Seriously) Although not right for everyone! (I love all record players, pls dont start)

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blacknwhite
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Re: Standards and things

Post: # 9869Unread post blacknwhite
Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:45 pm

fusionkid wrote:P.S. My Technics1210+stanton500AL always plays Everything! (Seriously) Although not right for everyone! (I love all record players, pls dont start)
...your point?... :lol: :wink:

Those who have any interest (Josh, any lurkers)... Sorry for being slow with the promised groove photos... I talked to a serious audiophile friend, who has been in the business many years building high-end multi-thousand-dollar tube amp systems, and is well-respected in that arena... and he made better reccomendations for LP's for me to photograph, which are more appreciated by audiophiles, than the ones I had originally photographed as "good cuts". I just received them in the mail, and verified they play well on old players, but still must photograph grooves on those new ones...

SHORT ANSWER ON HOW TO CUT "UNIVERSALLY COMPATIBLE VINYL": it's not as simple as a groove-to-land ratio. That definitely has to do with it. But there are many vintage grooves which come as close to "kissing" as newer pressings, but the older ones don't skip on older / cheaper players.

What it comes down to, for preventing skipping on older players: It's a groove-DEPTH-to-bass-LEVEL ratio, AND keeping "reasonable" amount of land.

The louder the bass, the deeper the groove must be.

2 solutions: One is appreciated by audiophiles (high-end system listeners), one is NOT.

The one that IS appreciated, and used on the better audiophile pressings which I just purchased for photographing: HEAVY VARIABLE GROOVE DEPTH CONTROL. Go DEEP on bass notes.

The one which is less appreciated by audiophiles, but which was used on all the "classic" pressings: Bass compression / limiting, such as the processor units shown on this website, already posted several times before here on the forum: Scroll down to the part of the page with the narrow black rack-mount boxes, labeled "Bass and Treble Limiter / DBL10 and DBTL20":

http://www.etec.dk/ortofon-vintage.html

Pictires to follow when possible, to show "visual demonstrations" of what does & doesn't work, but above is the bottom line description....

Thanks for any folks who care to accomodate people who listen on anything other than a Stanton 500 & Technics :) :) (I'm halfway kidding, fusionkid... halfway kidding...)

- Bob

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