New vinyl record presses

Once you have cut a master laquer, you have metal stampers created and have records pressed from them. Discuss manufacturing here. (Record Matrix Electroforming- Plating, Vinyl Record Pressing.)

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mossboss
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New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37480Unread post mossboss
Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:37 am

Well what can one say about the dead format!
Here we are some 30 plus years after the format was declared obsolete, we are having a shortage of manufacturing capacity
Quite a number of people are looking for presses nowadays which has resulted in quite a few people globally starting to make them or propose to make them so as to supply a market which demands them
So what have we so far?
Newbilt
Dicopress
Some guys in the USA making an SMT clone
AD1207 member here is offering a toolex clone, quite intriguing really as an AD1207 is the 7" press I am curious to know why he chose that name instead of AD12
These are the ones I am aware but with the state of the industry as it is I have no doubt that others are on the go
So if any of you are aware of any other proposed record presses or already made and available it be good to hear from you in this thread than we can compile a list of what is available proposed as well as contact details for those who are interested.
Best
Chris

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untitledthe
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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37489Unread post untitledthe
Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:34 pm

Their are those ''private'' projects like GZ Vinyl did with their new manuel presses.
Also Ameise Hamburg made a new press, but no production runs.

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mossboss
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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37505Unread post mossboss
Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:10 am

Private or not it's ok,
The GZ press It was made outside GZ facilities by some manufacturer in the Republic.
I do not think this was their first, Attempt either they do have some other locally made presses
The one shown is a copy of the Hamilton aka TTT presses of which they now must have 26 units so 52 cavities plus the auto presses
At the end of the day making some 13 million plus records a year takes some gear to do it with.
Thanks for the heads up on Mart I hope he gets results
Best
Chris

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untitledthe
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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37515Unread post untitledthe
Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:58 pm

I believe Mart got it allready running, i ment more in the sense of he probably isnt going to do large amount of presses.
The Newbilt is a cool operation, saw it come by here in the forum like ''new build'' presses but its actually a company allready or as good as in production state. There is a big demand for their demo showcases so there is going to be a second round they mentioned. Definitely tempting,..

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Aussie0zborn
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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37520Unread post Aussie0zborn
Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:44 pm

mossboss wrote: AD1207 member here is offering a toolex clone, quite intriguing really as an AD1207 is the 7" press I am curious to know why he chose that name instead of AD12
The Toolex 7" press is model AD702
The Toolex 12" press is model AD12 starting from AD1201 and ending with the AD1207 with only the AD1202 in between those two.
So an AD1207 is in fact a 12" press.

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mossboss
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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37521Unread post mossboss
Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:24 am

Perfectly correct
Must have had to much to drink that night. Ha
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Chris

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Aussie0zborn
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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37522Unread post Aussie0zborn
Sat Sep 26, 2015 3:28 am

Building new presses is a great initiative but so far this year 56 presses have come out of hiding and are being put into production. There were five new plants established in the USA in the last 12 or so months and coming online soon is a plant in Chile (with a Government grant, no less!!), one in Estonia and two in Poland.

I expect we'll see a lot more machines coming out of storage when the people who have them see the media hype and realise they can sell those old machines that are taking up space in their garage (that they got for nothing) and make a handsome profit. There are still 40 or so presses sitting idle just that I know of and no doubt more. There are four plants still standing from the golden years of vinyl that are collecting dust (two of them are like museums so don't get too excited... it's kind of like going back to the 50s). I would think its more economical to track these machines down and refurbish them properly.

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untitledthe
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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37568Unread post untitledthe
Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:41 pm

Aussie0zborn wrote:There are four plants still standing from the golden years of vinyl that are collecting dust (two of them are like museums so don't get too excited... it's kind of like going back to the 50s).
That would be sure fun to visit.

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jesusfwrl
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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37587Unread post jesusfwrl
Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:57 am

We are currently working on some designs for record presses at Magnetovolt. One would be a fairly standard manual press while the other one is a development and modernisation of the cook press idea.

Essentially, it would keep the low cost approach but would increase efficiency. The main similarity with the cook press would be the removable molds, extrusion in the press and lower pressure.

As for an automatic press, the electronic control system would be fairly simple to implement on our manual press design but we haven't figured out the mechanical modifications yet.

However, this is something we are working on now and then on paper as the lack of time and budget means that we are not very likely to go into production any time soon.
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mossboss
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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37600Unread post mossboss
Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:33 pm

The cook process was never adopted by any other manufacturer
It has always been a mystery to me why it was the case
Can any one throw any light on this?
New presses,
In so far as "new" presses or methods we here over the years seen just about anything that one can imagine as to how to make records
From garage style presses to wild ideas about other methods of heating up the moulds
At the end of the day the process of making records has not had any " inventions" for at least 100 years
Sure better or different materials faster machines better and faster moulds however the basic compression moulding or coining has not been improved upon
Injection moulding has been attempted and abandoned by all that did it with 7" records attempts to injection mould a 12" records was not successful
In view of the fact that so long as a stamper is required to press records I don't see any way to improve on this very old technology
So it is obvious that unless the need to make a stamper is eliminated by some yet to be found method the good old method will persist.
At the end of the day any 100+ tonne four column press can be adapted to make records so I don't see what All the fuss is about new presses.
No one so far since records have been produced has delivered anything fundamentally different
In other words people in this case are reinventing the wheel in so far as "new" presses is concerned.
A standard four post press with the required daylight and platten dimensions as well as some automation or as little as a few timers and hand loading the labels and puck will produce records
The issue is that the cash to install a new plant with all the requirements is lacking besides the fact that stamper production is hampering the output since not that many people are offering the service with its associated issues of lacquers Been sent across the planet etc etc etc
The point been that this flush af activity in the industry has shown the shortcomings with every one jumping on the bandwagon to get a slice of the pie like a good old fashioned gold rush
Let's wait and see what comes out of it
Best
Chris

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jesusfwrl
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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37612Unread post jesusfwrl
Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:59 am

For the most part, there are no new inventions. Just current implementations of the usual principle. I am not sure if there would be much interest at this point in a radically new concept as much as there is demand for more capacity for the old concept.

As for the Cook press, the original design had a few pro's and several con's.

The pro's:
1. Lower tonnage meant more cost effective presses could be used as they wouldn't have to put up with the full 120 tons of a traditional presses.

2. Removable moulds meant that you could use one press for all sizes of records.

3. There was no steam involved, the moulds were far thinner and could be heated electrically. Thus, the costs of setting up such a press could be kept lower.

4. Since the moulds did not have to cope with the full 120 tons, they could be made simpler and cheaper than traditional moulds. No steam and water jackets in them.

The con's:
1. Removable moulds greatly increased the risk of failed records as it had to be moved from the heating press to the cooling press while still hot.

2. This process meant that you cannot really have an automatic Cook press. You need the work force along with the presses who would transfer moulds from one press to the next, as well as manually refilling them.

3. The PVC granules went in the press raw, unheated. This increased the potential for errors in loading, compared to loading an extruded biscuit in a traditional manual press.

4. The cycle for making one record was slower than a traditional manual or automatic press. While this was not a problem for the original intended use of these machines (small scale production in the back room of a record store in exotic tropical islands with not enough population to sustain a real pressing plant), it was definitely not seen as acceptable in the high volume manufacturing environments of the time.

5. Due to electric heating, it wasn't really practical to have 20 of these presses set up in a row. If we were to change the heating to steam though...

6. The removable moulds might have been cheaper to produce but you would ideally need several of them for efficient manufacturing. One set of mould would be in the loading station, the second one would be in the heating press, while the third one would be in the cooling press and they would just shift positions, so all stations are reaching their full potential. So, in the end there is not that much of a cost saving on the moulds, unless you only want it to occasionally produce a few records in your garage.

As an idea, it could have a lot of potential, if one would use some of the Cook press principles along with traditional press principles and produce a hybrid.
The large manufacturers would probably still find a dual automatic press more attractive but the new start-up small manufacturers might find benefits in the hybrid idea. The lower tonnage involved means that you can probably go a different route with the hydraulic installation as well. Also, if you are only running a few of these, you would be able to do without a cooling tower and use much simpler cooling installations.

As for the galvanics, I am not aware of anybody coming up with an alternative. Indeed, this is the biggest factor in slowing things down at the moment and unless there is a new development there, we cannot expect to see a radical change of the pressing process. Cook presses need stampers just as traditional presses need them. There is no way around them for now.
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mossboss
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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37615Unread post mossboss
Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:12 am

An SMT or a Hamilton or an alpha had/ has replaceable moulds so one machine can do 7" 10" and 12" about 45 minutes and you got another set of moulds in the press up and running so nothing startling in that
Electric heating has been attempted by all and sundry with Philips spending some millions on the project the idea was to heat the moulds electrically but cool them down with water
It was a failure the reason that the cook process works is that the compound is almost like flour, very fine powder so it can set but you need to transfer it to a cooling station like you said a hobby machine
Arthur a friend in Italy having worked on the Philips team back in the day has been fighting with electrically heating moulds for about 4 odd years he has some success on a 7" so he told me we wait and see
I doubt that any one already in the game would have an interest in a process that has these shortcomings even new entrants would find it hard to go that route there is a shortage of expertise already in the industry so I don't see any one rooting around with the cook process
Lower hydraulic pressure? It's not necessary an advantage due to the cook process
You can run presses on a 1000 psi and use a pressure multiplier to give you the final required pressure ala SMT ala Hamilton finebilt are a high pressure system only but it only moves about 2" so no need to worry about the speed due to low volume high pressure delivery system
Now the low pressure system Alpha presses is different, they just used a bigger diameter cylinder to get the tonnage so the did run at around the 1500 psi
If you look up any hydraulic system design it will give you a simple formula to work out applied pressure to clamping pressure based on cylinder diameter
By the way no record press has ever had o top mounted cylinder the reason is that the shaft protruding from the piston so as to return the platten back up the top reduced clamping pressure substantially due to reduced surface area besides there is a lot of flexing on the platen as the pressure is applied only at the piston shaft area spreading outwards the the rest of the area
If you look at any record press they are up stroke presses withe actual piston pushing the platten upwards with no fixings whatsoever the weight of the platten pushes it down wards when the piston retracts.
Some one here who is making a press has said that the piston is mounted at the top
Over the years I have yet to see a top mounted cylinder on a record press been successful and believe me there has been more than one attempt
Good luck to this guy.
Also see the pressure require of projected area of a 12" record and apply the 100 plus tonne over the whole area the cook process used some serious presses judging from the pictures posted here so I don't think there where any lower cost they look like standard four post presses to me and up stroke no doubt he needed to make sure that he had the pressure available if he needed it
So far in my view the cook process will stay where it has been for decades dormant. Ha
I am elaborating on the ins and outs hopefully to keep people from spending time and effort in a chase in simple terms it ain't farked so don't fix it
As for the rest of your post what can any one say the shortcomings in the game are obvious to any one participating as a pro in it
Please exclude the armchair experts as well as the Internet experts
The ones that have a good idea of what's going on, they are the people who do it every day as well as the ones who have been in the game a little while the job teaches you really fast

Best
Chris

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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37617Unread post jesusfwrl
Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:53 am

So, would there be any part of the manufacturing process where there is room for substantial improvement?

Is the lack of new development a result of the process having reached some sort of evolutionary dead-end or is it just the lack of major R&D funding in the past decades?

As for the Cook presses, they were standard upstroke four post presses as you said, but the idea was that the clamping pressure required was under 10 tons. They still had to be pretty solid though.
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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37619Unread post mossboss
Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:32 am

Nothing that it is obvious apart from a radical departure from the known process.
Speed was the major requirement back in the days, that was achieved with multi cavity presses running at around the 15-18 seconds so around the 7-8 records per minute 7"
12" presses around 2.5 a minute single cavity
Also moulds reached a very high level of sophistication the aim was to make as thin a record as possible.
Fable made the best moulds as they made a very thin and flat record at around the 100 grams no one improved on that than or since
Of course now days people want heavy records at least it saves the environment not that many records to send to the tip, Ha
As already pointed out unless a radical disruptive step is found not much
Back to Mr Cook
If he only needed 10 tonne it seems that he certainly went overboard with the presses
The look like they have 4" diameter columns good enough for 100 plus tonne
May be he thought that if the process failed at least he could put the presses to standard use just a guess really
I can tell you what's needed, its a good control and automation system as most machines out there are In need of one
The standard stuff it's getting old and expensive to maintain
Not a Plc but a dedicated microprocessor based with enough flexibility to be adapted to the 3-4 presses which are commonly used
Best
Best
Chris

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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37683Unread post AD1207
Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:32 am

Aussie0zborn wrote:
mossboss wrote: AD1207 member here is offering a toolex clone, quite intriguing really as an AD1207 is the 7" press I am curious to know why he chose that name instead of AD12
The Toolex 7" press is model AD702
The Toolex 12" press is model AD12 starting from AD1201 and ending with the AD1207 with only the AD1202 in between those two.
So an AD1207 is in fact a 12" press.

Actually AD1203 through AD1206 also existed as models. These were "video presses"...

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mossboss
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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37699Unread post mossboss
Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:02 pm

Obviously you are referring to the RCA presses which where supplied to make the first successful video disc the CED format in 1980
Wher there any others?
Best
Chris

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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37708Unread post AD1207
Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:58 am

mossboss wrote:Obviously you are referring to the RCA presses which where supplied to make the first successful video disc the CED format in 1980
Wher there any others?
Best

Sony and CBS

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mossboss
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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37721Unread post mossboss
Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:17 pm

Thanks for the info
Over the years we had around 30 alpha toolex machines we still have 9 two autos the rest manuals
The machine we had where from all over the world Croatia Hungary Columbia Africa Bulgaria and some other places
Some of our manuals have a serial number around the 15500 with castings dated 1967 so I guess there must have been far more than that number made in the number of years they where produced
I have not seen anything approaching the 500 mark on autos
Assuming their where numbered sequentially it seems that the autos have survived in far greater numbers than the manual machines
We can count more than 100 autos in use around the world but not more than 50 manual machines
Have you any information on the quantity of machines made in both autos and manuals? it will be very interesting to know from the source
We guess around the 400 autos and around the 18000 manual machines
Are we anywhere near the actual numbers?
Best
Chris

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jesusfwrl
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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37726Unread post jesusfwrl
Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:22 am

I can tell you what's needed, its a good control and automation system as most machines out there are In need of one
The standard stuff it's getting old and expensive to maintain
Not a Plc but a dedicated microprocessor based with enough flexibility to be adapted to the 3-4 presses which are commonly used
Best
Well, the electronics/hardware side of such a device would be fairly straightforward. The programming would be piece of a cake for anyone well versed in programming and embedded device software development.

By far the hardest part would be knowing in detail the quirks of each press this would be designed to work with, and know the timing ranges from actual experience with the machines. So, someone like yourself already has the tricky solved! The rest is the easy part.
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Re: New vinyl record presses

Post: # 37741Unread post Aussie0zborn
Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:51 am

mossboss wrote: By the way no record press has ever had o top mounted cylinder
Not correct. See this short video clip : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aOo76IAQ8Jw
If you look at any record press they are up stroke presses withe actual piston pushing the platten upwards with no fixings whatsoever the weight of the platten pushes it down wards when the piston retracts.
The weight of the platen AND the return springs. Note that Toolex semi-auto presses have FOUR RETURN SPRINGS under the platen. The Finebilt also has return springs mounted externally which you can easily see with the naked eye.
Some one here who is making a press has said that the piston is mounted at the top
Over the years I have yet to see a top mounted cylinder on a record press been successful and believe me there has been more than one attempt Good luck to this guy.
Take a look at it again : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aOo76IAQ8Jw

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