Pressing Shellac Records?

Once you have cut a master laquer, you have metal stampers created and have records pressed from them. Discuss manufacturing here. (Record Matrix Electroforming- Plating, Vinyl Record Pressing.)

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mischmerz
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Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37320Unread post mischmerz
Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:04 pm

Howdy fellow trolls:

A question for you: Would an arbitrary record press be able to press shellac records instead of vinyl? Are the shellac mixture recipes known and/or available?

Thanks for your answers.

Michaela

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mossboss
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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37479Unread post mossboss
Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:26 am

Sure thing the press can certainly do it but why?
The compound is a pain in the prov to make, also the equipment which was used in the past is no longer available
Blenders are available but things like the calendaring rolls to blend the slate, rubber, shellack, carbon black and gum so as to make it homogenous are mostly gone
We do know of a few I ale define rolls used by some manufactures I n existence but they want at least 2-3000 lbs order so as to make it worthwhile
Although all the materials are available, we did it some years ago like more like 5 years it is not an excersise that I will ever do again not for the few records that some people want
Besides the material finished up been quite coarse with a lot of background noise on the resulting records which was the result of no calendaring of the mixture as we used current generation blenders and high sheer machines
Also
Noise was due to the coarse material but Mainly it was due to the sensitivity of modern cartridges picking up every un filled spot in the groove, they sounded fine on very old phonographs, so unless they are played in hand crackers or use real early cartridges with the correct stylus the end result It's not that great when played in "modern" playback gear
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Chris

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mischmerz
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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37497Unread post mischmerz
Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:26 pm

mossboss wrote:Sure thing the press can certainly do it but why?
Why do people still drive and maintain Ford "T" models ? I understand the disadvantages of shellac vs. vinyl. But there are still plenty of vintage mechanical and "Astatic" heavy weight crystal cartridge players out there. The other day, while without power due to a severe thunderstorm, my husband an I listened to Rachmaninoff's third piano concerto by the flickering light of a candle enjoying a good wine - on a vintage victor gramophone. So - there is the need and a (small) market out there.

Michaela

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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37502Unread post mossboss
Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:58 am

Well you are right. Small market indeed, but need? I don't think T model ford drivers satisfy they transport needs with a tin lizzy that's for sure
At any rate I have put forward my view from a manufacturers point of view.
I am affraid you will not get any takers myself included not again, in particular when, with all the hassles one needs to go through, you also get the demanding consumer who wishes to force his rights on the view that the customer is always right. Ugh
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Chris

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mischmerz
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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37510Unread post mischmerz
Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:54 am

mossboss wrote:Well you are right. Small market indeed, but need? I don't think T model ford drivers satisfy they transport needs with a tin lizzy that's for sure
At any rate I have put forward my view from a manufacturers point of view.
I am affraid you will not get any takers myself included not again, in particular when, with all the hassles one needs to go through, you also get the demanding consumer who wishes to force his rights on the view that the customer is always right. Ugh
Best
Thank you for your inside. Is 1000 records a number worth to continue to investigate this issue?

Michaela

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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37558Unread post mossboss
Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:53 am

A tonn of material makes around the 5000 records
Needs to be paid up front
Than the cost of cutting metal work labels sleeves packing freight etc
Pressing will be around the $2.50 each it takes twice as long to make them as they need to set under pressure and heat been a thermosetting material
So that's about 5 x 1000 units
Best
Chris

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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37565Unread post mischmerz
Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:41 am

mossboss wrote:A tonn of material makes around the 5000 records
Needs to be paid up front
Than the cost of cutting metal work labels sleeves packing freight etc
Pressing will be around the $2.50 each it takes twice as long to make them as they need to set under pressure and heat been a thermosetting material
So that's about 5 x 1000 units
Best
Hmm .. the increased costs would be a problem. But I just need a thousand units. PM me for details or if interested.

mm.

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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37582Unread post mossboss
Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:31 am

We may leave that in the not so hard basket at present, may be some time in the future we can re visit the topic
Far to much demand for records at present to play around with this
Sorry but these are the commercial realities, when we did that some time back the pressure on production was not as high
I sincerely hope you understand
Best
Chris

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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37585Unread post mischmerz
Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:42 am

mossboss wrote:We may leave that in the not so hard basket at present, may be some time in the future we can re visit the topic
Far to much demand for records at present to play around with this
Sorry but these are the commercial realities, when we did that some time back the pressure on production was not as high
I sincerely hope you understand
Best
Hey .. no hard feelings. Finding somebody able and willing to press Shellac is a long shot in the first place. But I will continue to search for equipment and Know-How, because I believe that this is a viable (small) market segment.

Michaela

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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37731Unread post mossboss
Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:09 pm

Ok young lady here is a bit of education for you
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qdhNNaQhgv8
At around the 12 minute mark it starts to tell you how the stuff is blended
Banbury mixers are almost extinct.
You get the idea of how difficult it is to even get a tonne of the stuff made
Enjoy
Best
Chris

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mischmerz
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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37755Unread post mischmerz
Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:34 pm

mossboss wrote:Ok young lady....
Uhh .. thanks for this one :) I did enjoy the video - again: Thanks for posting. I understand that the shellac process is complicated. So - let's think from the desired result backwards. We want a record that can be played on a mechanical player with a steel needle. Shellac is too difficult - could we create a vinyl mix that would be hard enough to withstand a steel needle? Maybe some hardener that toughens the record within a few days after pressing? Or mix something into it that can be activated with UV light ... ?

mm.

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mossboss
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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37769Unread post mossboss
Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:59 am

Polycarbonate should do the trick. No need to muck around with unknowns
Need to do some tests but I think it would stand up to the rough treatment.
May be some time in the future or may be sooner no incentive at this stage and experimenting is rather costly but may be you can get someone else closer to you interested.
Asking for a few records out of the stuff pressed. You never know if no success revert here
Best
Chris

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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37771Unread post Steve E.
Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:54 am

mossboss wrote:Polycarbonate should do the trick.
I wonder about that. Any material with "give" will present problems if we are talking about playback with steel needles, mounted on those heavy reproducers. Wouldn't a steel needle basically emboss into the groove that it is supposed to be riding on top of? For mechanical playback, you'd need a hard, unbending, unflexing material.

50's-era plastic 78s get murdered on wind-up players.

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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37772Unread post mossboss
Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:39 am

It would be worth a try it is a very tough material however I take your point
By the way does it also have to be a hill and dale cut?
Best
Chris

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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37773Unread post mischmerz
Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:32 am

mossboss wrote:It would be worth a try it is a very tough material however I take your point
By the way does it also have to be a hill and dale cut?
Best
No. We're talking regular mono records. There are not a lot of Edison type record players out there anymore.

mm.

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aaron
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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37774Unread post aaron
Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:59 am

I wonder if acrylic would work... It doesn't emboss, doesn't scratch easily.

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EmAtChapterV
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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37776Unread post EmAtChapterV
Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:06 pm

I did experiments a couple of years ago with molding and casting records out of hard resin - the materials are super expensive and it's time-consuming to make, but since the fully cast resin has the same hardness as a construction hard-hat I wonder how well this would work? What is the Shore D hardness of lacquer and shellac versus PVC (65-ish according to Google) and casting resin (85)?

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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37777Unread post mischmerz
Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:20 pm

Well folks, don't forget they mixed abrasives into the mix to shape the steel styli :)

mm.


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mischmerz
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Re: Pressing Shellac Records?

Post: # 37831Unread post mischmerz
Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:43 am

Wow .. almost 500 hp for under 100 liters mixing chamber. It is really unfortunate that I never learned to work with tools (or machinery) like that. I guess I am never going to get my shellac records :(

m.

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