Hey everybody,
Meanwhile the Constitution of our mashine goes on and on...
But i need to know is it possible to press a 12" with Standard tolex stampers aplication...
Closing Force is calculatet with 110 Tons... We wanna reduce the oil Flow per Minute the piston diameter and Energy... Any ideas to realize a 12" press with around 80tons closing Force? Because i often heared about the Old lened presses work Like that...
Thanks in advance... Marc / DISCOPRESS Germany
closing Force for 12" Records
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DISCOPRESS
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:08 pm
- Location: Germany
Re: closing Force for 12" Records
mmh, I think, you will need minimum 110tons, for usage with standard pvc,
maybe with another (softer) compound is lower pressure possible?
there was a low pressure version of toolex presses available,
as far as I remember 160bar, but cylinder has more diameter and also more oil
inside?
At the end you will need 200kg/cm2, 3.2 liter oil per cycle...
There are high pressue cylinders available, but there you have the pressure
on a relative small area, then you need a thicker press table...
good luck!
maybe with another (softer) compound is lower pressure possible?
there was a low pressure version of toolex presses available,
as far as I remember 160bar, but cylinder has more diameter and also more oil
inside?
At the end you will need 200kg/cm2, 3.2 liter oil per cycle...
There are high pressue cylinders available, but there you have the pressure
on a relative small area, then you need a thicker press table...
good luck!
-
DISCOPRESS
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:08 pm
- Location: Germany
Re: closing Force for 12" Records
Thank you!
next time i try to draw and simulate a cylinder with 270mm diameter and a piston rod of around (240-268mm) range 200 bar version
i will see what our drawing programms say about that data.
we use Siemens Femap, Inventor and open source www.wolfgang-frank.eu/hydrauik.php
i need a drawing of the original toolex 12in cylinder
to see maybe were on the right way to invent a new one...
best wihes for 2015!
next time i try to draw and simulate a cylinder with 270mm diameter and a piston rod of around (240-268mm) range 200 bar version
i will see what our drawing programms say about that data.
we use Siemens Femap, Inventor and open source www.wolfgang-frank.eu/hydrauik.php
i need a drawing of the original toolex 12in cylinder
to see maybe were on the right way to invent a new one...
best wihes for 2015!
Re: closing Force for 12" Records
At the end of the day it is very simple guys
It is the projected area of whatever size record you need to press, 110 tonne over the whole projected area of the record is required for a 12" the projected area is around the 113 square inches so around the 10 tonne per square inch is what it takes
Less of course for 10" OR a 7" record
You cannot use a toggle press where the bars lock with a small cylinder so as to give you the tonnage, it does not work for the coining method used for records
The Leneds as well as the SMT rely on a pressure multiplier internal to the press so as to provide the final 100+ tonne from a low pressure pump which runs at around the 1000 psi the multiplier than increases that to around the 2850 for the final squeeze for the final 1/2" or so before the dies are completely closed
Standard two pressure system on an Alpha requires a supply at 1000 psi for fast closing by a high volume low pressure pump, another pump which is high pressure low volume comes in at the final 1/2" of movement It naturally slows the whole movement down as it is very low volume so the flash is pushed out nicely so as to fill the unloader
The low pressure alpha machines had a much bigger in diameter cylinder around the 14" with the system running at 75 bar or around the 1000 psi for 12" records
The piston is a solid piece of steel weighing at around the 100KG +
Standard Alpha machines loose around the 6-8 tonne of closing pressure due to the pull down cylinders which are under constant hydraulic High pressure
There are not many Alphas which will do a 180 gram record as the pressure is not sufficient to form them unless you modify the standard system
Teldec machines supplied by alpha did have the extra valves required to do the trick only pressurising the pull down cylinders when the press was to open
On a standard machine these pull down cylinders are overcome when the press is closing which causes the loss of about 6 odd tonne of closing pressure
All alpha toolex presses unless they are Teldec modified open in a hell of a hurry, the reason being that the pull down cylinders have no control at all which can be applied to them, none whatsoever
When the cycle ends the oil gets dumped out from a 2" outlet which can be adjusted some what to slow the discharge of return oil, regardless, there is no cushion on the main piston, so since full oil pressure is constant on the 2 pull down cylinders once the dump valve is opened it does open very fast and quite often with a bang
It works but there is room for a big improvement as Teldec found out long time ago
Alpha never offered an option to other buyers, however we happen to have machine that was an ex Teldec
That is how we found out, some schematic drawings do show the Teldec modification in the Hydraulics as well as the control circuit
Lets be realistic
The industry is well over 100 years old There has been many attempts over many years by many people to improve the process, no one so far has managed to come up with an improved method
Calculate it out or speak to any injection molding machine manufacture and simply ask what tonnage is required for the projected area of any size record
Better still take a look at the tonnages provide for in a compression molding machine they are still made the process is the same
Cheers
It is the projected area of whatever size record you need to press, 110 tonne over the whole projected area of the record is required for a 12" the projected area is around the 113 square inches so around the 10 tonne per square inch is what it takes
Less of course for 10" OR a 7" record
You cannot use a toggle press where the bars lock with a small cylinder so as to give you the tonnage, it does not work for the coining method used for records
The Leneds as well as the SMT rely on a pressure multiplier internal to the press so as to provide the final 100+ tonne from a low pressure pump which runs at around the 1000 psi the multiplier than increases that to around the 2850 for the final squeeze for the final 1/2" or so before the dies are completely closed
Standard two pressure system on an Alpha requires a supply at 1000 psi for fast closing by a high volume low pressure pump, another pump which is high pressure low volume comes in at the final 1/2" of movement It naturally slows the whole movement down as it is very low volume so the flash is pushed out nicely so as to fill the unloader
The low pressure alpha machines had a much bigger in diameter cylinder around the 14" with the system running at 75 bar or around the 1000 psi for 12" records
The piston is a solid piece of steel weighing at around the 100KG +
Standard Alpha machines loose around the 6-8 tonne of closing pressure due to the pull down cylinders which are under constant hydraulic High pressure
There are not many Alphas which will do a 180 gram record as the pressure is not sufficient to form them unless you modify the standard system
Teldec machines supplied by alpha did have the extra valves required to do the trick only pressurising the pull down cylinders when the press was to open
On a standard machine these pull down cylinders are overcome when the press is closing which causes the loss of about 6 odd tonne of closing pressure
All alpha toolex presses unless they are Teldec modified open in a hell of a hurry, the reason being that the pull down cylinders have no control at all which can be applied to them, none whatsoever
When the cycle ends the oil gets dumped out from a 2" outlet which can be adjusted some what to slow the discharge of return oil, regardless, there is no cushion on the main piston, so since full oil pressure is constant on the 2 pull down cylinders once the dump valve is opened it does open very fast and quite often with a bang
It works but there is room for a big improvement as Teldec found out long time ago
Alpha never offered an option to other buyers, however we happen to have machine that was an ex Teldec
That is how we found out, some schematic drawings do show the Teldec modification in the Hydraulics as well as the control circuit
Lets be realistic
The industry is well over 100 years old There has been many attempts over many years by many people to improve the process, no one so far has managed to come up with an improved method
Calculate it out or speak to any injection molding machine manufacture and simply ask what tonnage is required for the projected area of any size record
Better still take a look at the tonnages provide for in a compression molding machine they are still made the process is the same
Cheers
Chris