Plating Issue

[The Treaty Oak Collective]

First, thanks Steve for troubleshooting my previous posting problem!

On to the plating issue. I am using a spray silvering kit along with an electroless nickel plating kit that I purchased from Caswell a few weeks back. Silvering is no problem and looks great. When I complete the nickel plating stage and go to remove the metal from the lacquer, the lacquer comes off with it, leaving the aluminum exposed!

Any idea what I'm doing wrong here?


Thanks in advance for any input.
-Brandon // TTOC

[Aussie0zborn]

The silver layer should come off with the nickel, leaving a very clean lacquer.

For some reason the silver is sticking to the lacquer or you are not peeling the nickel electroform off the lacquer surface but rather peeling the nickel electroform and lacquer off the aluminium disc.

I take it you are not using a rubber masking ring on the edge of the lacquer so you will probably be getting a thick deposit all the way to the edge, and possibly thicker on the actual edge with plenty of dags.

Try using an abrasive tool to reduce the thickness at the edge before peeling the nickel elctroform off and ensure you are lifting it off a lacquer surface - not off an aluminium surface.

In any case, you can use acetone to dilute the lacquer that is adhered to your nickel plate.

Now some questions for you....

1. Have you got a photo of this? And a photo of the lacquer being silvered?
2. What are you going to do with the nickel plates?
3. Can you produce a mother and listen to it? I would be interested in hearing about the results.
4. Do you have the facility to passivate the master before plating it to make a mother?

[mossboss]

1.You are running to high a temperature man Two reasons for that, a, It should be no more than 38 C maximum in the bath, b, you are pumping to high a current at the initial stages heating up the aluminium substrate therefore peeling the lacquer off
2. Pre-plate at very low voltage no more than 1-1.5 Volts for at least 0.5-1 hour
3.Than increase the current to about 2-3 volts. Suck it and see is the way
4. Six steps increasing voltage to a fully grown negative for 10-12 thou thickness, or leave it alone at the second stage for a 12 hour stretch
5.Scrape all of the lacquer OFF at the edges particularly at the back so a bit of the silvering can go at the rear Use a stanley knife and just run it around the perimeter at the back of the lacquer This will ensure a good grip of the Nickel at the exposed aluminium base Also so as to get even current flow
6.Scrape off the back of the lacquer around the center hole so there is full contact of the boss to the front silvered face
7.Use a copper washer under the screw used to hold the lacquer on the rotating boss, on the face of the silvered lacquer, so as to again have full current flow This should be as small a possible or you will finish up with a thin deposit there
Good Luck
Cheers

[The Treaty Oak Collective]

Aussie,

Good call on the Acetone, not sure why I hadn't thought of that previously.

The deposit of the nickel should be uniform with electroless plating unlike electro, so I'm not to worried about any flaws from the forming.

1. Have you got a photo of this? And a photo of the lacquer being silvered?
2. What are you going to do with the nickel plates?
3. Can you produce a mother and listen to it? I would be interested in hearing about the results.
4. Do you have the facility to passivate the master before plating it to make a mother?

1. I do not. I already scrapped them and will be re-cutting and attempting to re-plate. I can post photos of that as it is done though.

2. I'm mainly seeing if I can produce a good stamper. I have a DIY press setup that I am experimenting with (not for any real profit but just to see what can be pulled off on a small scale operation).

3. I can give this a try if the plating is successful.

4. I work in a Catalyst R&D Lab so I do my silvering there (for the compressed air, chemicals and ventilation etc.) and will probably be setting up my plating station there as well. I'm sure I could do the passivation there. I'm interested in trying mossboss' egg white recipe.


Moss,

You are probably right about the temp.

Isn't voltage unnecessary in an electroless plating situation? Rotation as well?

Thanks to you both for the responses.

[montalbano]

Scratch the edges and the center of the lacquer so as to ensure conductivity
Run at low temp and low amperage 38-40°C
With these conditions, it's physically impossible that the lacquer is peeled off the aluminium
I totally agree with Mossy: too high temp and if you manage to separate the lacquer from the nickel, you will probably see that the grooves will be deformed.

ciao

[mossboss]

The devil is in the details You should have pointed out that you are attempting a leap of faith
Electroless nickel is a total waste of your time, effort, and money
But it looks like you are wasting someone else's Ha
The deposit is far to brittle so as to form a stamper besides any records pressed from them on the assumtion that you did manage to form them a very doubtful event, would be very noisy
There was quite a few attempts in days past to do away with preplating via this process but it was abandon by all and sundry due to the noise level being un acceptable The process was and it is still deemed useless for our game
Further
For stampers you need a ductile deposit with almost zero stress and an amorphous deposit of nickel
Impossible to achieve with an electroless process which relies on some fairly corrosive additions so as to be successful invariably building up a deposit of crystalline structure which is useless for pressing records
The process is successfully used in applications that are in the main decorative rather than engineering applications where an electroform is used to do work
Finally:
Well its your choice and if you want to learn from others experience, its all here, else just bang your head away and discover it for yourself
Keep in mind that when there was a need for thousands of stampers per day the electroless process looked like the answer
Alas it was not to be and it remains so
Cheers

[The Treaty Oak Collective]

So is the silver layer damaged by the crystalline nickel deposit during forming? Or in the pressing stage? Either way, your advice is duly noted.

Electroless nickel is a total waste of your time, effort, and money
But it looks like you are wasting someone else's Ha

Now it's time to draft a capital project proposal for a much needed electroplating station for the lab
-B

[markrob]

Hi Chris,

Do you think vapor deposition followed by electroless plating to build up the thickness faster?

Mark

[mossboss]

Hey all
Vapour depositison is also a no no Mark
The vacuum required for the process sucks the volatiles out of the lacquers ruining the silver or gold deposit
It works fine for wax
it was the next step after graphite powder was the normal method of making the wax conductive
Vacuum deposition as well as sputtering was abandoned around the mid 30's
The silvering with a two headed gun doing the trick once lacquers were bought into play was adopted from the printing industry where nickel printing plates was well established
Electroless nickel remains a difinite No for stampers as well even today
By the way
The silver coating is removed from the first negative regardless whethere its going straight to press or making a mother/father
Cheers

[markrob]

Hi Chirs,

Thanks for the info.

As one of many to do projects, I have some samples of wax here and I would like to try making some blanks. I have a Welch vacuum pump and some high voltage supplies availble. I'd like to try vapor deposition someday. I think I can get away without need for an ion pump in additon to the Welch. The goal would be to make a onstep process stamper from a wax master and use my Cook press to make small diameter pressings (<= 7"). We'll see....

Mark

[mossboss]

Hello again Mark and others
I think you may get away without a diffussion pump for sputtering wax
Since the end result of the process is not demanding as other applications, meant only to make the surface conductive it should be OK
I would suggest in this case to use nickel wire in the boat rather than any other salt
Fine pure nickel welding rods for cast iron are easily obtainable
For arc welders, you can strip the coating off, or if for TIG is much better
Of course depending on the high voltage available you may use bits of a stamper as it is 4 x 9 nickel
Since you would not be able to get a hard vacuum a moutful of argon in the chamber just before the current comes on, would do wonders to stop any oxidation of your deposit due to not a low enough vacuum
Of course this applies to wax
By the way casting some bees wax with a little old fashioned soap in it at 2% is easy enough as it was the standard method
You would need it about 2-3" thick on a 3/4" plywood base and a few tacks nailed on it to give the wax a grip
Than with a sheet of shim around it, to the right height, sprayed with a bit of crisco so as to be able to be removed easily, you have a mold, to cast in
Turrn the face at high speed with a finishing tool on a lathe to get a nice smooth face to cut on as the wax shrinks on cooling down
By the way,
It seems that you have may need a deal with your maker just as I have
My deal is to live till 150 YO
Thats about how long it would take me to cover all my projects, I think you may need a bit more, so have a chat to the Man
Cheers