Vinyl Police? Or Vinyl Mafia?

[mossboss]

Hello everyone who follows my post's
I often considered the first mentioned above body Someone beat me to it
He is one of our members here it may fall in the second category though
You be the judge, may be you want to comment on this
OK
Here it is a Private Message
Masterpiece of verbiage?
I saved the man the trouble posting it up
Poster: BobK
Location: Dinosaurian Empire
Total Posts 5
Should I sign off with: WTF like he does?
Nah
Cheers,

From: BobK
To: mossboss
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:05 am
Subject: Why?
Quote message
You seem to find great pleasure in belittling people on this forum. I am not going to embarass you by posting my comments publicly, but do know that there are people who are on to you.
I still have contact with the people I did my cadetship with at hayes and I can assure you that Roy Matthews or anyone else from Hayes do not have anywhere near enough knowledge to work with an expert like your self. I dont think they could bear the realisation of how little they know......
You do know that Roys first job as a cadet engineer was to design the EFD facility at hayes of which you have inherited one of the plating baths.... He had 26 plants ( 10,000 people at Hayes alone) and Abbey Road Studios under his direct control at the height of his career. I think he is pretty happy doing what he is doing with the people he is with now. I think his days of empire building are done.

You do seem to have a degree of knowledge but passing it on to any dickhead that comes along and manages to acquire a record press does nothing other than increasing the number of people who are capable of producing a half baked result for no money and further reduces anyone elses ability to make a reasonable return on investment. As you are well aware there is way too much capacity in this business.
I do have to ask why are you doing all of this? There are much better ways to make money in this world. Is it just for bragging rights? It just doesnt make any sense.

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WTF
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No one pays inheritance These baths have been paid for by the people mentioned As for the rest it remains verbiage

[cymbalism]

I still love you and your posts mossypoo

[fraggle]

with all respect mr. BobK
but what is your contribution to this forum.
this is not a pillory and at the end of the day i don't give a shit really.
i'm glad here are some people with experience even if mossy is not always right but that might be because he is such an old fart hehe.
so anyway:)

[Aussie0zborn]

OK, here I am holed up in my little hotel room with only the TV and the Fourm to keep me entertained. That means I have a little time on my hands so this is going to be a long reply. I did say in a previous post that Melbourne sucks and while some people thought I was saying it to annoy Fraggle, it really does suck. Rain like you wouldn't believe. We have a gig at Etihad Stadium tomorrow and can't bump-in until at least one hour after the football finishes. That gives us only three hours to set-up. WTF?????

Mossy... they are "onto you" mate.

Bob, the purpose of this forum is to share knowledge because its not avialable from the equipment manufacturers as it once was. The old days are truly over mate. Back in the day the equipment manufactuirers sold equipment to anybody. There was no qualification or discrimination as to who got to press records. They even sold equipment to "start-ups" or dickheads as some like to call them. It continues today in every industry. I think its called free enterprise.

I dont think anyone here giving advice to "dickheads" will bring the industry crashing down. If they make a half-baked product the market will dictate their fate. Ofcourse there is no technical support from the equipment manufacturers and there are no more multi-national conglomerates that have their own R&D facility as CBS did, for example, to develop the medium. This is why one has to admire Vnylium Switzerland and anybody developing new equipment or passing the information down to the next generation. They should really be encouraged.

This forum becomes the centre for the exchange of knowledge and ideas. What's the difference between giving this information away for free and a company that charges for it? Is your friend Mr Matthews who you valiantly defend the same guy who owned Musitech Ltd? (Does he actually need defending in this forum? I dont recall anybody attacking him). I spotted a Musitech advertisement in the now-defunct "One To One" Magazine's "Gold Book" and see his name as the contact person. The ad promotes the "sale, installation and commissioning of complete plants". I'm sure they sold their Lened presses and Musitech plating gear to anybody who showed up with the money and offered ongoing technical service for a fee. Does the exchange of money make it OK to pass on technical information? I wouldn't have thought that passing this on for free would ruin the moral fabric of society. And who appointed you as keeper of the flame? Did you know that EMI sold their flagship plant complete with technical know-how to a guy who was walking past the plant? He had no fucking experience in vinyl manufacuring but unlike some, he has the right attitude! Read it here :

Fortunately the plant came with its staff, including a manager now pushing 80, whose parents worked there before him. Four highly skilled engineers have been retained to pass on their knowledge to the younger generation.

"The key part is taking old technology but keeping it going by investing in the skill base," says Wadhwa. "That's the way British manufacturing should go. We should not just discard it."

Spurce : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/4436558/Vinyl-The-business-duo-who-believe-its-got-a-big-part-to-play-in-musics-future.html

If there is a multi-national pressing conglomerate then it is clearly Mossy (with pressing plants in three countries so far). And if being multi-national is the measure of whether or not you are allowed to own a pressing plant then there can be no argument.

The exchange of information is not a bad idea if you consider that these young guns will carry vinyl into the future when you and I are both long gone. Good luck to anybody who can do it! As much as I hate working with DJs (who love to run their mixer into the red!!!) it is actually these guys who are keeping vinyl going an investing their money in cutting and pressing equipment and I have come to love them for it.

If one is small minded enough to think that "bragging rights" are of interest to the Moss Man, I note it was more than six months before the forum discovered he owned pressing plants in three countries. (Congratulations to Detective Andy B for discovering this and pointing us to the evidence). And the Moss Man still hasn't announced it per se (except for the recent update to his signature).

To further illustrate my point, one only needs to use Google Earth to look at Zenith's factory. I visited once (unannounced ofcourse) and counted at least one mega five-storey factory building, I think eight silos, four or five other factory buildings plus offices and maybe 100,000 square metres of parking at that address. If I owned that property I would be renting out every square inch of those premises and then I'd charge the tenants for the air that they breathe rather than having an empty five storey building just to store my spare moulds. I think he has bigger things to brag about. See the premises here : http://www.onmydoorstep.com.au/heritage-listing/16/john-darling-and-son-flour-mill

In a previous post you belittled Mossy and argued that the EMI auto press could not press records without labels. Mossy pointed out how they could do just that and you agreed. Being an independent means you dont have the luxury of referring an issue to this department or that department or have a meeting with all department heads - you have to do it yourself. You are motivated to find ways of doing things that peole working in a "system" don't. And that;s whatthe Trolls are about.

Anyone who presses records today has my utmost respect and anybody embarking on such a mission deserves whatever help one can offer if you feel vinyl is a medium worth keeping alive. I feel you might still be a "company man" but there is no company any more.

Welcome to the revolution!

[JayDC]

The exchange of information is not a bad idea if you consider that these young guns will carry vinyl into the future when you and I are both long gone. Good luck to anybody who can do it! As much as I hate working with DJs (who love to run their mixer into the red!!!) it is actually these guys who are keeping vinyl going an investing their money in cutting and pressing equipment and I have come to love them for it.

thank you.. for once someone actually acknowledges it..

[montalbano]

Agree with Mike.
Only one little point about ownerships: PP is owned by Mossy and by me I am the MD there. While he owns OV. These are details though.
I think that the best proof of what you say is that either in the UK and in Italy the workers of the plants used to have "bad habits". There was a lot to be fixed and improved. And it is still improving. But there was also a lot to be learned. So every plant has its peculiarities and we just made suggestions. Exchange of information. Rather than imposing a model to people used to work in a certain manner since 20-30 years.
After all, even workers are happier to see a better result of their work. Or to go home early when job is finished with just a few rejects.
Experience at the plant and exchange of informations are always winning in the mid term and all of this would have not been possible without the Internet, in the heydays of vinyl.
Like you said, a one-press plant will not steal significant jobs to any other plant, especially in the mid term if quality is not acceptable. It can drive prices down but none of the strategic customers which worth 50-100K records per year will go there. These customers want the service more than any other thing, speed in delivery and no headaches. That's all. Now a big or medium plant if a problem occurs can do one more set of stampers in about 2 hours or if there is something wrong with one press can move the job to another one. Just an example - you know how it goes. And the one press plant is less efficient in terms of energy and pays any mistake or accident 10 times than a bigger plant.
Yes, the other way is to keep all information encaged. There is still that paragraph in the PP employment contracts the workers have to sign. But I find it a bit retro. After all, how many "dickheads" are there around today? You gotta have AT LEAST 50-100K at the end of the day to enter this "exclusive" club. And for a plant with all facilities like OV or PP: cutting, pressing, and galvanics, how much capital do you need?
So if like BobK says there is too much capacity nowadays it will hardly go to newcomers - it might rather go to the BIGGEST players because they seem to take more and more advantage of the scale economies

[greybeard]

Mossy, thanks for sharing this mail with us. No amount of reading Lathe Trolls will give a person the knowledge that practical experience does. So, it is only in a situation where staff disappears from an operation that I can understand why an owner would grumble about information floating around. EMI's Hayes plant was enviable in the old days -- I have visited it -- and their engineers did marvellous work, for instance they devised an automatic click detector in which the record turned backwards to make distinction between a cymbal and a click more foolproof. They were the original manufacturers of the Historic Masters series of reissues of coarse-groove records in vinyl (from 1972 onwards), and they pressed in-house one-offs for re-issues on LP, cassettes, and CDs. But those were other times, and preserving the skills is very important. Mossboss, you have been involved in all aspects of material handling and machine construction with a perspective also far outside record production, so we are very fortunate to have you diagnose problems and point to solutions. Amen.

[piaptk]

My $.02 is:

Mossy can be, rather ummm... blunt. to be sure. Maybe the subtleties of cordiality get lost in the translation from Australian to American.

But his knowledge is greatly appreciated.

And, as far as giving info to dickheads, his posts regarding setting up a press seem like they would scare off anyone interested in setting up a press rather than encouraging. He makes it perfectly clear that if you don't have a lot of money and a lot of knowledge, you are unlikely to be successful with it. Lord knows I would never even consider it after everything he has posted. So consider it at least one dickhead that won't be entering the market thanks to Moss.

[maniman]

Mafia coercion ? they wanna moss silence ? (jajaja)

One simply , because he have the freedom to do that and ballooning around the world if he want , that is enough answer.

Bob Katz , Abbey Road and the number one are only that , names and numbers , have the importance that you wanna give them (the important names and numbers are at the end of the month)

Only need to read a bit to see the fact that mossy is a very high percent of the life of the trolls.

The fact is the only way to get back inversion of a press plant is press records (I believe they have been designed to do this, but I do not know for sure....haha)

Fewer words and more make records.(Not for the trolls focused ,Logically are for who is scared of have more and more presses around the world , and that is say "Long Live to the Vinyl" ).

[JayDC]

ballooning around the world sounds fun, just light up your spliff and see where the winds take you..

[subkontrabob]

Bob Katz

Hey maniman,

I'm not sure if that was a joke or not, suggesting the person posting as "BobK" is Bob Katz?

That is highly unlikely, because the guy who PM'd Mossy seems to be an Englishman who learned his trade at the EMI facilities in Hayes - Bob Katz on the other hand is an american mastering engineer...... (very nice and humble guy by the way......)

cheers,

Bob

[maniman]

yes sorry people , you are rigth , not sure for what , sounds me obvius when read the post ()...and isnt , totally true , anyway isnt really important.

If someone say something like "do not post about this not to put you in evidence...and that and other that ...." , well , minimum expected to be an eminence of these dimensions...not ? , I do not think I fully understood what could be the reason for their anger , or I'm lost in translation , or not make much sense.

Sorry.

[JayDC]

I'm pretty sure free information cancels out free enterprise. that being said, old secrets die.

so in the words of bart simpson "Your damned if you do, and your damned if you don't"..

[maniman]

Oh , ok , is what I meant , very constructive... , the general fall is music industry related , not ?.

Seems a lot of people runs all size installations succesfully , the cake is the same (maybe bigger than the worst time?) but are parted in different way , that is common in all business around world , that is a natural change of that enviroment.

Best Regards

[JayDC]

Oh , ok , is what I meant , very constructive... , the general fall is music industry related , not ?

I don't really think the industry is totally at fault. I think there are many factors. More at fault then the industry is the economy, and society.

Poor economic conditions raises prices, and lowers purchasing power for the consumer. For instance, today in america, the average price of gas per gallon is $4.05... This will raise the price of shipping and logistics, in-turn raises the price of the product, on the manufacturing end and on the retail end.

Society is also inherently working against us as well.. Even if it means to, or not. Most people cannot wait a week or more to get a song now-a-days, and not everyone is fortunate enough to have the ability to walk to the corner shop and grab the newest hit vinyl, like the past. Even if they could, I'm starting to think the feeling of instant gratification is too great to not pass up buying the song now for $1, and downloading it.

Good thing 75% of the dance music DJ's still use vinyl, although this is falling with the advent of timecode vinyl, and computer DJ software.

I'd like to know who the genius was that didn't walk out on this job when he/she was asked to master that tone.

The record to end all records

[dietrich10]

Oh , ok , is what I meant , very constructive... ,


Good thing 75% of the dance music DJ's still use vinyl,

that high in your circles?

[JayDC]

probably an over estimate, but my circles do seem to like acetate. CD always seem to travel, but tats more coz customs will nail you for a record box if you seem to be "working" and you don't ave a visa..

Some of the guys i know put all the tunes on an ipod or thumb drive and either burn them or cut them once they are in country..

One of the reasons we are not so much playing actual vinyls in my scene right now is coz 3 of 4 distro's stopped vinyl production this year.. ow are we suppose to play someting that doesn't exist..

[maniman]

Hehehe , as long as timecoded records would needed the pressing plants still up and running , hehehe , not , now seriously , dietrich are totally right in Barcelona enviroment , isn't the common , the common in these days are the serato kids , here thats is a fact , me now do more work for audiophiles and band guys that wanna the band tunes in record than cuts for djs.

Jay are right too , here these year 1 of the 2 bigger distros close definetly , that combined with the serato kids have left the scene made ​​a desaster , really don't care , the 80 % of my lathe use is cut our own things (the business part are more for help friends and other known people to get that terrenal dream into a reality).

Really the cutters and the pressers are at the same place doing the exact same things , yes the industry isnt fault at all , but them found more rentable sell us the cassette, the CD, the MINIDISC, the DCC, the SACD , etc.. and all that shits than make strongest record industry , that are more office desk affairs than competence problems. If have a pressing bussiness that depends of the mayor labels , that can occurs , if all that major labels stop pressing records and starts only cd production , that dependent press goes down , is overwhelming (hehe ...never better said) logic. not ?

Cheers

[subkontrabob]

Good thing 75% of the dance music DJ's still use vinyl, although this is falling with the advent of timecode vinyl, and computer DJ software.

I'd like to know who the genius was that didn't walk out on this job when he/she was asked to master that tone.

The record to end all records

[rant]
I think the timecode vinyl is not the problem. If anything, it should have saved the analog way of DJing. But as most of us probably know, it didn't.

Matsushita/Panasonic stopped manufacturing the legendary 1200/1210 series because there is no demand anymore.

It's the little plastic gizmos with two jogwheels and the pioneer CD decks that have killed vinyl in the electronic/dance music segment. Hip Hop dudes be still scratching away, because you can't emulate that to the same degree - but many of them using serato nowadays.

Hell, I know former vinyl addict reggae selectors gone plastic gizmo + notebook, you can play all the hottest swagga from kingston the same day they put it out - only problem is, all the pullups sound mickey mouse style, and I've seen crashing computers in the middle of a dance - not nice.....
[/rant]

[maniman]

hahahah , the serato pull-up is a joke , totally agree.....

I think the theme of technics is an urban legend , technics not stops to manufacture all turntables , only the pure analog (MK2) , I guess the still made the MK5 series , the MK5G for sure.

Regards