Pre-Mastering Digital Audio for Lathe Cuts??

[ToBlathe]

Okay, so I'm totally new here - and more importantly very unversed in mixing and mastering for vinyl (wanting to master for a 12" Lathe Cut from a Presto 75A to be exact). I did a cursory search and found some threads with titles that seemed like they would be informative but just didn't find the "Dummy's Guide" type deal I was looking for. I understand that most people here have 10+ years experience in working with mixing, mastering and cutting on lathe machines but this is a very interesting and new world for me.
In essence I am simply looking for the absolute DO's and DON'T's for mixing and mastering material for a lathe cut record. If this is badly worded, too open ended or just generally a stupid question I apologize. Oh, and I will not be cutting the records myself, I am wondering what state digital files need to be in when passed along to be cut. Again, I know this may not be worded properly or fully explain the information I'm requesting - if that's the case simply point out what I need to add or expound on and I will happily do so. The other threads that I read about Vinyl Mastering and Mastering For Vinyl etc, didn't really say much other than what you need to use for your own set up when cutting your own records. I am in search of details on how the digital files I will be passing along should be mixed and mastered so as to sound the best that they possibly can with as little work on the recipients end as possible. Looking to have my stuff cut on a Presto 75A if that matters.
And one last time, thank you for any help in advance and please let me know if this is a dumb question or hit me with links of where/what I should be reading with a comment or PM. Sincerely appreciate any help in these regards and long live The SS of Lathe Trolls, this place is blowing my mind as a guy who just found out how great lathe cuts can truly sound after having been fed degraded lacquer sound hog-wash for so many years.

[mischmerz]

Howdy - I though I give you some basic directions. And the most basic direction would be: It depends See - if you master for cutting, you need to know how much music you want to have on the record because the more music you want to put on one side, the more you would have to limit and reduce the audios. And the more base you want to cut, the less space you have available, because the grooves need much more room for base. And you can't cut too hot because this may make the needle jump out of the groove. So there are a lot of variables. And those make it pretty hard to master without cutting yourself - at least cutting some samples. In summary - while an experienced cutter might be able to cut almost anything you throw at him (or her) , if you want the optimum, you should work closely with the cutter or .. cut yourself.

mm.

[ToBlathe]

I know that about 12 minutes per side is optimal for 12" so that's what I was shooting for 13 minutes or less. I will be trying to work as closely as I can with the cutter but he's not located super near me so it will all be digital or phone communication. So, I want to have things as ready as I can when I send him files. Wish I could cut it myself but that isn't going to happen in the foreseeable future so if anyone has any other suggestions I would love to pick some people's brains...

[mischmerz]

Well - than go ahead and master the tracks the way you like 'em - have them cut and listen to the tracks. If you don't like what you hear, repeat process. Depending on the music, you may have to compress a bit - but you'll find out.

m.

[Aussie0zborn]

So your question is about pre-mastering digital audio for disc cutting. I've changed the title of yrou post so that you might get some more responses form people who do lathe cuts.

The person cutting the discs for you is the best person to guide you. Check cutting studios' websites to see their recommendations. Some basics however... all low frequencies (kick drum, bass, low frequency synthesizers) should be centered in a stereo mix. Go easy on high frequencies - use a de-esser on vocal tracks and watch the hi-hat.

[Steve E.]

Bump. Welcome ToBlathe!

[jesusfwrl]

Welcome to the board ToBlathe,

Premastering a digital file for any kind of target medium, including records, lathe cut or otherwise, depends entirely on the person doing the transfer and how they want to work.

So the best advice to offer is to ask a few good questions to the person who will be cutting your records and you will have your answers:

1. What format would they prefer the digital files in?
I always ask for PCM (WAV) files at 192 kHz/24 bit, or alternatively DSD for the few people who like using that. Others have different preferences.

2. How hot should the files be?
I personally ask experienced engineers to send me their files peaking at -1dBfs, or even -0.3 dBfs, if they feel really confident. If they are not very experienced I ask for -3dBfs peaks, as it will almost certainly exceed that...Opinions vary greatly on levels.

3. Do they cut mono or stereo?
If he/she can only cut mono, there is no point in delivering a stereo mix! Just work it in mono how you like it. If they can cut stereo, just be reasonable with the stereo information at low frequencies, as mentioned already by others above. If unsure, ask the cutter.

That's the basic questions, apart from that, the best way of premastering for vinyl is to not premaster for vinyl.
Just get the mix sounding exactly how you want it to sound, based on the above questions and make sure you meet the exact technical specifications provided by the cutter. If any processing needs to be done to make your material better sounding on record, or any compatibility issues, the person doing the cut will either fix these at their end or send it back to you with clear instruction what to fix. Or at least, that's how I work.
You don't need to know the particularities of each disk cutting lathe and it is definitely bad practise to try to imagine what your mix might sound like after being cut to disk.
Each system is different, and each cutting engineer works in a different way, with vastly different equipment.

[Greg Reierson]

1) Don't add distortion (that means don't hit it hard with a limiter)
2) Control HF content (sibilance, etc.)
3) Send it to the cutting guy (he'll do more if necessary but he can't undo any processing you have done)

Everything else is guessing.

[tragwag]

People have some great things to say, if I may add - I usually prefer something closer to a CD master, than a Vinyl master for lathe cuts.
I do all the de-essing and safety EQ on my end, so if people have a good (to them) sounding mix, that isn't dramatically dynamic, we're in business.

[ToBlathe]

Thank you all so much for the amazing help so far! I think my main question has been answered in that I should contact the guy who I want to do the cutting and ask him for how he specifically likes things and how he wants the files delivered (what format and frequencies etc) and I will not only not be bothering him but following protocol. This is my first experience with pressing my own stuff and much of my question arose from not wanting to look like an idiot when I sent him the files. I thought, before digging into these forums a little, that there would likely be a solid set of numbers or frequencies that I shouldn't or should use and that is most definitely not the case.
I think I am just going to drop the guy a line and figure stuff out from there but I would like to inquire about two things just a little more.
1) I hear/see de-esser a lot in reference to cymbals, I normally just use adobe audition 5.5 to do my editing, is there a better program for working with cymbals and other stuff that need slight correction along these lines that I should be using in conjunction with, or instead of, Adobe Audition?
2) Can anyone elaborate on where everything should be located in a stereo mix? Even if I end up doing this one mono with this guy, which I don't think it is, I would prefer to know how to do both mono and stereo mixes as I get the feeling this isn't going to be my last foray into lathe cutting. Aussie mentioned that all low frequencies (kick drum, bass, low frequency synthesizers) should be centered in a stereo mix - anything else need to be somewhere specific or "sound better" located there?
Thanks again for all the info - this is going to be an adventure for me and I really appreciate the input and help!

[ejemmons]

Another thing to ask for from your cutting guy would be answer files - a transfer of the the audio to be cut post processing. This forms an excellent basis for the back-and-forth that yields the best product in the end. No MP3s!!! From a pro chain, the sound will be quite close to what you'll end up with on lacquer, and they're FAR cheaper than recutting!

[ToBlathe]

Another thing to ask for from your cutting guy would be answer files - a transfer of the the audio to be cut post processing. This forms an excellent basis for the back-and-forth that yields the best product in the end. No MP3s!!! From a pro chain, the sound will be quite close to what you'll end up with on lacquer, and they're FAR cheaper than recutting!

I despise lossy audio - and thank you, that is a wonderful suggestion as I had wondered how to best quality control stuff between us without test presses or anything like that.