Hey gang...
I've been busy with a show, and then I got distracted scratch building a tube amp to drive some of these old crystal and magnetic heads (another story entirely).
But I wanted to share my results with the plastic duplication process. (Some details in the 'handcrankers' area.)
I am hereby moving the discussion out of the handcrankers area. I love handcrankers, of course, and have much to share by way of recording on wax (literally). But this plastic duplication method does not result in anything you can play on a handcranker. I tried. All I got was a reminder of how tough the old shellac records are. Modern plastics (even this high tech gear grade stuff) does not stand up to the punishment inflicted by a steel needle. (And BTW, I do NOT believe the fellow on the Smooth-On site claiming to be making Victrola-worthy copies this way. I think that is a hoax that someone has perpetrated on Smooth-On Inc.!) ---and if the foregoing is mystifying---once again, I refer you to the thread in handcrankers.
Anyhoo, I decided to demonstrate MY results the contemporary way: I posted a demo on youtube.com complete with a political punch line.
Visit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zuSx0R23Go
and respondez-vous s'il vout plait.
antique at heart, etc...
Moderators: piaptk, tragwag, Steve E., Aussie0zborn
antique at heart, etc...
kay dee 88
"a warm tube and soft wax..."
"a warm tube and soft wax..."
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buckettovsissors
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 7:13 am
My copy ,using wood glue.
Yes it plays,
no it does not play "good"
I didnt have any luck with smooth on producks, allthough I only tried the plastic that you make the negative out of, the negative wouldnt play,have you tried playing your negative, or just using the plastic that dries hard to make a "direct" copy from a record, this of course would play backwards.
Yes it plays,
no it does not play "good"
I didnt have any luck with smooth on producks, allthough I only tried the plastic that you make the negative out of, the negative wouldnt play,have you tried playing your negative, or just using the plastic that dries hard to make a "direct" copy from a record, this of course would play backwards.
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buckettovsissors
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 7:13 am
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cuttercollector
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:49 pm
- Location: San Jose, CA
Backwards would only happen if you took the material from the inside of the disc and put it at the outside. A spiral is a spiral. It is a line if uncoiled. The line direction would have to be reversed to hear the material backwards. Think of a reel of tape.
More puzzling is why a negative would play. Now you have a ridge of material instead of a groove. Between this ridge and the next one over you have a "groove" which should look like the ridge between grooves on a normal record.
This would not have many wiggles in it. Depending on exactly how it was done you might expect to see some influence on this "groove" from the ridge of material on either side. The walls would not be symetrical so that would lead to out of phase info which the cartridge would decode as stereo diference info. What I would expect to hear is low level material from 2 adjacent grooves out of phase.
For professional playing of stampers and other negative parts there are special styli which have 2 points with an inverted V between them to fit over and play the negative ridge.
More puzzling is why a negative would play. Now you have a ridge of material instead of a groove. Between this ridge and the next one over you have a "groove" which should look like the ridge between grooves on a normal record.
This would not have many wiggles in it. Depending on exactly how it was done you might expect to see some influence on this "groove" from the ridge of material on either side. The walls would not be symetrical so that would lead to out of phase info which the cartridge would decode as stereo diference info. What I would expect to hear is low level material from 2 adjacent grooves out of phase.
For professional playing of stampers and other negative parts there are special styli which have 2 points with an inverted V between them to fit over and play the negative ridge.
playing negatives
Yo,
once again, cuttercollector has 'bashed the nail on the crumpet'.
I'm not trying to play my negatives because they are silicone rubber, and to be used for the plastic pouring process, they must retain their structural integrity, including the raised 'post' that forms the center hole. The material itself is very soft. I think trying to play them (which frankly didn't even occur to me) would destroy them. (And would also be likely to yank the stylus out of its cantilever.)
My work on this is in 'pause'. My Task 4 plastic has passed its shelf life, and I'm not seeing any reduction in atmospheric humidity arounf these parts (Illinois). I'm thinking of trying again with some faster plastic, less susceptible to bubble formation due to humidity. I will, in this case, have to tolerate a greater shrinkage factor and less tensile strength in the result. But the bubbles are a killer.
once again, cuttercollector has 'bashed the nail on the crumpet'.
I'm not trying to play my negatives because they are silicone rubber, and to be used for the plastic pouring process, they must retain their structural integrity, including the raised 'post' that forms the center hole. The material itself is very soft. I think trying to play them (which frankly didn't even occur to me) would destroy them. (And would also be likely to yank the stylus out of its cantilever.)
My work on this is in 'pause'. My Task 4 plastic has passed its shelf life, and I'm not seeing any reduction in atmospheric humidity arounf these parts (Illinois). I'm thinking of trying again with some faster plastic, less susceptible to bubble formation due to humidity. I will, in this case, have to tolerate a greater shrinkage factor and less tensile strength in the result. But the bubbles are a killer.
kay dee 88
"a warm tube and soft wax..."
"a warm tube and soft wax..."
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buckettovsissors
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 7:13 am
All negatives that I have made out of PVA play, they play the music backwards, what kind of groove they have I donno becuase I dont have a microscope but it is devently the music backwards. I have to tried to play a neagive made from that silcone that you used, no it didnt work, No it didnt pull the stylus out. Ive also tried the silcone used to seal windows ect , it doenst work good its too flimsy and doesnt play and doesnt go into the ridges deep enough.
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cuttercollector
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:49 pm
- Location: San Jose, CA
This is fascinating to me. I'm not trying to be funny or sarcastic here but the negative you make by pressing some material into a record, a normal put the needle on the outside and it plays to the center and rotates clockwise record, plays backwards? The negative plays backwards. Do you put the needle on the inside then and it plays to the outside?
Hmm, It is a miror image... Perhaps that would have to rotate counterclockwise to play forwards. You do see what I meant about playing from the "outside end" of a long line of material to the "inside end" coiled into a spiral.
And you still have to be listening to the "land" between 2 grooves because that is what would become the groove on a negative. Are you playing it back in stereo and if so do you hear any strainge channel anomolies? Like lots of out of phase info or 1 groove rpm echos?
Hmm, It is a miror image... Perhaps that would have to rotate counterclockwise to play forwards. You do see what I meant about playing from the "outside end" of a long line of material to the "inside end" coiled into a spiral.
And you still have to be listening to the "land" between 2 grooves because that is what would become the groove on a negative. Are you playing it back in stereo and if so do you hear any strainge channel anomolies? Like lots of out of phase info or 1 groove rpm echos?
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buckettovsissors
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 7:13 am
Yes, they play from the inside out.Do you put the needle on the inside then and it plays to the outside?
Yes I have done some tests in stereo, I didnt hear any strange anomolies, execpt backwards music or backwards talking. No I have not noticed any out of phase echos ect. ect. really just a backwards version. Ive tested music and just a stand up comdey 7" the best part was the clapping backwards.And you still have to be listening to the "land" between 2 grooves because that is what would become the groove on a negative. Are you playing it back in stereo and if so do you hear any strainge channel anomolies? Like lots of out of phase info or 1 groove rpm echos?
But they do not play back "perfect" that is they skip ,I have found that it really depends most on just how perfectly flat you can get it and if you can reduce the air bubbles ect. it plays more like a strange lockgroove record. Also depending on what settings your tone arm has it can play better or worse. The problem with the bubbles you wont have with that silicon becuase it magicly doenst get air bubbles.
What I did is I had some records cut at some dj services that use a vinyl recorder. I sent in the recordings backwards, that is I reversed them on my computer and set them in to be cut. Then I made glue negatives, they play "backwards" a mirror of the "master" but the song is in fact "forward" or correct.
Other projects that I did was to cut glue negatives in half and glue two diffrent halfs together, that can be dangerous for your playing needle but if you glue them together very carfully, it works with nice jumping needle effect. sometimes jumping towards the inside of the record but then getting push again and again to the outside due to the inside out grooves.
glued discs
hei
there is a swiss artist from geneva. frederic post. he
works since a few years with glue negative records. he calls them "miracol"
we did many cuts for him, and he is doing the reproduction with kind of white glue used for wood its on Polyvinylacetat basis....
i think frederic has no direct website about miracol . but i will find out.
but maybe google gives you answers as well.
chhers f.
there is a swiss artist from geneva. frederic post. he
works since a few years with glue negative records. he calls them "miracol"
we did many cuts for him, and he is doing the reproduction with kind of white glue used for wood its on Polyvinylacetat basis....
i think frederic has no direct website about miracol . but i will find out.
but maybe google gives you answers as well.
chhers f.