Is anyone using vinylike diamonds on the vinylium cutter?

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KALIA
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Is anyone using vinylike diamonds on the vinylium cutter?

Post: # 18629Unread post KALIA
Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:39 pm

the new diamonds from vinylike demands a 90 degree cutting angle, witch allmost seems imposible, since the sc99 cutterhead is mounted like it is.

Does anyone know how to get a 90 degree cutting angle on a vinylium cutter?

thank you

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petermontg
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Post: # 18630Unread post petermontg
Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:53 pm

It's been said before to adjust from the angle of your TT. Am not sure how you would achieve this, as in my thinking you have the overhead sitting at 180* directly on the TT. If you do a search am sure the answer will come up somewhere.

Or just contact florian. He has/had involvement with both products.

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Audiofiligram
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Post: # 18658Unread post Audiofiligram
Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:35 am

Hi Carter ,

The most important is the cutting angle it has to be 90 degrees
the Problem with the Vinylium Mechanics is that you will never have
90 degrees only with the diamond from vinylium but the thing you can´t be sure of the exact angle . So what i did is :

Buyed a 90 degree cutting diamond @ Ameise (www.amei.se) for 290 € (all Tax)in Germany , there are with heating wire , this will also increase your diamond life. The mechanic piece where the head is mounted , i replaced this with a copy of it (you can make it @ everey mechanic company), they managed to make some holes on the side so now i can put it lower (nearer to the plate) the thing is you will need another damp, a shorter one.


Cheers

Audiofiligram

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fraggle
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Post: # 18660Unread post fraggle
Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:00 pm

I would very much recommend to use a stainless steel platter or similar. put it onto the turntable platter. if the platter has 6 or 8 hole with treads you can then adjust the height. that will give you whatever angle you need. also the disc will be 99% flat. cheers

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KALIA
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Post: # 18673Unread post KALIA
Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:43 am

Ok thank you very much coleegs.
Inspiering to read this - ill head to the studio now to try this out.

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slumpcutter
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Post: # 19413Unread post slumpcutter
Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:52 am

OK so this thread is close to home: I am about to purchase a diamond needle from Vinylike and use it with the Vinylium cutterhead. I'm not sure if I understand what the issue mentioned above is because, when I cut dubplates, the angle of the cutting stylus appears to be 90 degrees from the cutting surface. Isn't it 90 degrees? Won't it be the same with PC/PVC?

Since the carriage for the cutterhead sits on the turntable, would it have to be shimmed? Should I be getting the needle from Vinylium instead so I don't have to hassle with this?
Last edited by slumpcutter on Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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slumpcutter
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Post: # 19553Unread post slumpcutter
Mon May 07, 2012 7:42 pm

Does anyone know if I will have the same problem with cutting angle if I get the diamond directly from Vinylium?

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Steve E.
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Post: # 19560Unread post Steve E.
Tue May 08, 2012 5:31 am

This thread was confusing the heck out of me. Then I realized it references this:

http://vinylike.de/

It still confuses the heck out of me, but not as much.

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mossboss
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Post: # 19561Unread post mossboss
Tue May 08, 2012 5:43 am

Ok Now here is one for the diamond cutting guys as well as any one supplying them
Why would any Neumann DMM cutting lathe head would have the diamond mounted at 45 degrees to the cutting surface facing backwards so as to "dig" much like a plough does, the copper?
Further why is it that the diamond itself is "encased" in some kind of a metal jacket with barely .50-.75 of a mm protruding?
And why is it screwed on the head with the smallest square headed screws you ever seen
It is easy to see why
It is that all of the pressure experienced by the stylus while cutting is applied at the mounting point which is exactly opposite to the direction of the cut
This is so as to not exert any torsional or flexing backwards pressure on the Diamond, just pressure to the back of the stylus along its axis
May be thats why they give about 200 odd hours than they only need sharpening for another round of 200 hours
Did these guys had it all wrong than!!!! Mmmmmm
I am still in a state of wonder why are people expect these styli to last when they are against all known principles of cutting anything with a diamond
When the stone is not supported real close and all round it will break like glass
Particularly when it is at right angles to the cutting surface point where one has a flexing/torsional pressure applied on the stylus while cutting
In a round about way I am answering the question which should read something like
"The more negative angle you can provide the chances are that you would have a longer lasting stylus"
I will take a closer look at the DMM stylus so as to see the angle it is ground but it certainly looks like it is 90 D to me.
I may also provide some close up pictures of it one of these days
No, I am not really answering the question am I?
It is a further wonder to me that these people who sell these diamond cutting styli do so without any warranty whatsoever even though they must surely back a product they sell
Its something that makes no sense to me when people part with $200-300 for something that the likely hood of it lasting more than a few cuts it very unlikely
Still don't know if it is a case of fools with their money tra la la, or living in hope
Not sure what it is in view of so many failures
Could someone out there enlighten me please!
Cheers
Chris

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slumpcutter
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Post: # 19563Unread post slumpcutter
Tue May 08, 2012 6:49 am

Steve: it is confusing!

I emailed Vinylike.de about ordering the needle since their ordering system on that page is broken at the moment.

I asked 'what will I have to do to make it work with a Vinylium dubcutter (SC99 cutterhead)?'

The answer:
"you are right: you need 90° cutting angle, otherwise the diamond will break very easily, as the vinylium head is mounted to have a regular saphire/lacquer cutting angle of 15° you need to adjust it (there is some info on lathetrolls.com about it) you could raise the height of the platter or do some other bricolage"

So I'm going around in circles, as they suggest looking on here!

I didn't realize the cutting angle of the SC99 wasn't 90 degrees. But now I have to assume its 15 degrees past vertical... like a plough. So, it seems, to get the right cutting angle, the platter has to come up. Then the cutterhead doesn't arc downward as much and thus the angle of stylus to plate is closer to perpendicular. I guess (!!).

I still don't know if I can bypass all this trouble by getting the stylus from Vinylium (www.vinylium.ch), the maker of the cutterhead and carriage that I have, but their website and ordering system, um, needs work.
Last edited by slumpcutter on Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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flozki
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Post: # 19566Unread post flozki
Tue May 08, 2012 10:42 am

i think it is totally possible to adjust the cutterhead angle in a wide range.

you can turn up and down the overhead quite a bit in the center.
on the otherside there are rubber feets, which you can get in any hardware store.
or just put some wood under until you know the perfect height.


I use vinylike and also used vinylium stylii quite often. and i still didnt found out whats the best angle.

to start at around 90 degree is definitely good. but then it depends on the material and also the speed.

when we developed the vinylium stylus we where not sure about the angle and so we manufactured them in different steps. 0,2,4,5 whatever (0 means 90 degree). and not sure which one was best and what they sell now.

also there are 2 sc-99 versions.
the dubplatecutterversion. it has the hole 90 degree in the torque tube.
main purpose was to cut into polycarbonate, vinyl...anything and the idea of a diamond stylus in mind....

the "pro" version mainly for cutting masters has same 15 degree angle as neumann sx68/74 head. identic mechanical dimensions.
it has a flat surface where the stylus goes in.

my personal feeling is that it has to be almost 90 degree for best results....
but should not be too critical.

correct center alignment and "slow down" when starting the cut is more important.

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slumpcutter
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Post: # 19569Unread post slumpcutter
Tue May 08, 2012 6:14 pm

Thanks for the reply, Flozki!

What I'm taking from your reply is that it doesn't much matter if I get the stylus from Vinylike.de or Vinylium.ch, right? The website for Vinylium doesn't specify cutting angles for the stylus they sell, so I have to assume its on a straight shank (just like Vinylike's is). Sound right?

I have a Vinylium SC99/Lathe/Electonics made in 2005 (possibly 2004, I bought it from a guy who bought it from the factory and brought it to Seattle). I think it is the dubcutter version, the hole in the torque tube looks like 90 degrees (there is no flat area, it is a tube with a hole in it).

It cuts dubplates with a sapphire really well, and that's what I've been doing since I got it. But since I definitely want to switch to cutting PC/Lexan, I have to switch to diamond. Most cuts will be at 33rpm (in an attempt to get more audio on a 7"), but I think I will do some at 45rpm later, when cutting on 12".

Any additional advice is appreciated! :)

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slumpcutter
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Post: # 20027Unread post slumpcutter
Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:03 pm

OK, so I ordered the diamond stylus ... from vinylike.de

While waiting for it to arrive, I inspected the cutterhead angle and assembly much more closely. It appears there is no easy/mechanical way to adjust angle. I was going to use a layer of cork in addition to another rubber mat but I can't raise it much more, as the stylus will touch the blank before I even lower it with the handle! Since the head lowers along an arc, it makes contact just as it starts to lower, but that's an angle of 8 or 9 degrees.

Shimming the carriage/lathe to tilt it does almost nothing. The angle is still right around 10 degrees off of vertical. So I'll either have to try some radical method to get the cutting plane higher... or risk cutting at around 10 degrees off vertical.

I received a message from a member on here telling me about his difficulty with this same set up. They had a piece made to change the angle but they still got bad results. I'm trying to remain hopeful that I can make it work.

PC blanks should arrive in the mail soon. I'll update when I've tried to cut, but I'm a little nervous now.
Last edited by slumpcutter on Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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slumpcutter
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Post: # 20029Unread post slumpcutter
Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:26 pm

Also, I am kind of mystified at the moment because of this on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa9_h2CrNJU

... which says they used a VINYLIUM diamond. There doesn't appear to be any modification on that set up, so I'm totally confused. So is the vinylium diamond mounted on the shank at an angle so the cutting angle is closer to vertical? The vinylike diamond is not angled at all, it appears to be a straight shank.

Also he doesn't appear to use heating wires (there doesn't appear to be any). The vinylike diamond has heating wires. Should I use them?!

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slumpcutter
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results of first tests

Post: # 20489Unread post slumpcutter
Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:20 am

It's working for me.

Recently I've been cutting a couple handfuls of Makrolon blanks using the vinylium dubcutter and the vinylike 90degee diamond.

I have made no permanent modifications. I did put down a 12" PC blank to raise the cutting surface, which will eventually be replaced by another standard Technics 1200 rubber mat. I had to spend a little time making sure the cutter was level.

The cutting angle of the diamond is close to 90 degrees (it is gouging like a plow very slightly, about 3 to 5 degrees past vertical?), pretty close to straight up and down). The cutting head barely starts to lower before it touches the PC blank, he cutting surface is up as high as it can be and the cutter still be functional (as the cutting head swings down slightly on a tensioned spring).

So far, I've only cut at 33rpm on 7" blanks. There is roughly enough real estate to cut two songs at 3 minutes each... maybe more? I haven't tried to test that yet.

45 rpm testing is next, but the surface noise at 33 was not bad, not bad at all. On the whole, similar to a lot of records I've bought over the years. I've tried cutting with and without the heating wires, but I see no difference so far.

The surface of the PC is not exactly flat all the way across, my blanks were slightly wavy, but not horrible. If I keep the cutting depth slightly aggressive, it doesn't seem to matter.

We'll see how it goes... the diamond seems pretty burly, it is mounted on the shaft really well.

So far so good, knock on wood.

P.S. once the whole setup is dialed-in, it seems about as effortless as the video I posted before.
Last edited by slumpcutter on Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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flozki
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Post: # 20492Unread post flozki
Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:32 pm

hello slumpcutter
good to know that it works. hehe

actually i made the video you linked. so this was just a quick and dirty cut to show how easy it is... :)

just a few things.

there are 2 different stylii , which you have noticed.but i write again for other people

the vinylium ones
the vinylike ones.

totally different types.
vinylium has an angle. diamond is soldered on a titanium rod.

vinylike is straight pure diamond in a aluminum cone. very similar to the one from the shank. he has nice pictures.

so i think it is easy to adjust the height with putting distances under the cutter.

about the heating. the vinylium vc-200 has all prepared for the heater. fixed for 500mA on regular stylus heating wire. all inside the box. and even soldered up to the DB 15 connector if i remember right.

but: we never connected the heating wire cables because of legal issues.
a nightmare if someone in USA burns his house down because he used heating but no chip suction. that would have killed the company.
so we leaved to each user if he wanted to add this feature or not.
then he is responsible for fires.haha.
also you have to add a heater wire terminal on the sc99.
most people make a small pcb with two M3 screws and attach th wires there.

so not sure if you have that. or did you used external heating?

flo

i try once to post pictures of the different stylii. and also the different torque tubes of the heads...
so people can understand better.

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slumpcutter
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Post: # 20495Unread post slumpcutter
Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:52 pm

I should have figured someone on here made the video... didn't think I'd be talking to you directly, haha.

I didn't wire up the heating, so I guess it's not been doing anything all this time! I coudn't ever see a difference between wires on or off the terminals... so that explains that. I've used a bulb near the spinning plate to heat lacquers to good effect, but haven't tried warming up Lexan/Makrolon with it yet.

I still have to dial in the cutting depth a lot on run-in. Since it is at the top of the height adjustment, it doesn't always act right when I lower the handle. But I lower the handle, adjust the depth and its usually good.

I don't think I factored in the length of the shank and diamond initially in my cutting angle calculations. It turns out around 3 to 5 degrees off vertical, I feel very confident that it's not gouging vey much at all.

Raising the level of the plate, a level plate and level cutter travel, and everything on as close to 90 degree angle adjustments (head on and cutting angle) seem to be the most important things.

My vacuum system needs work, it's the next thing on the list to improve ;)
Last edited by slumpcutter on Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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slumpcutter
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Post: # 20496Unread post slumpcutter
Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:53 pm

I searched for pictures by the shank, did not find them, anyone have a link?

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carter
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Post: # 21119Unread post carter
Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:32 pm

I rereading what Flo says below about heating with the VC200/SC99.

Has anyone done this? Did all units ship this way - heating disabled? I thought that by connecting the heating wires on the stylus to the screws it was heating. Can someone else clarify this explanation of how to enable heating? I don't get where to do it (just inside the VC200) or if I open the VC200, will I see exactly what he's talking about?

what is a "small pcb"? the SC-99 comes with heater wire terminals, doesn't it?



about the heating. the vinylium vc-200 has all prepared for the heater. fixed for 500mA on regular stylus heating wire. all inside the box. and even soldered up to the DB 15 connector if i remember right.

but: we never connected the heating wire cables because of legal issues.
a nightmare if someone in USA burns his house down because he used heating but no chip suction. that would have killed the company.
so we leaved to each user if he wanted to add this feature or not.
then he is responsible for fires.haha.

also you have to add a heater wire terminal on the sc99.
most people make a small pcb with two M3 screws and attach th wires there.

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flozki
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Post: # 21123Unread post flozki
Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:09 am

i think all units where shipped this way.
maybe the first 5 or so are different. but all the other ones i know (manufactured up to about 2007-2008) had all the heating wires up to the db connector. so theoretically you just need to add the 2 wires on the db15 cutterhead connector.
also all transformators inside the vc200 have the seperate heating wire.so even if it is not connected it is a quick fix to do.

on the original kingston dummy head there is a resistor to simulate the heating wire. so i am very sure it was wired on almost all units.
the heating wires are attached on pin 1-9

if you have the dummy head you can attach it and measure with a multimeter if your heating is attached and working.

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