Hi All
This post was or it was a continuation of the polycut thread really But It may serve some others so I gave it its own heading
Just as I thought $60 an hour Pheww On what basis? and why? people Want to make that kind of dollar out of a pile of crap that was never meant to do any more than cut a dub for a radio station back in the 30-40's
I am surprised that one could even get $8 per hour
I suppose the fact one needs to be tone deaf or even completely deaf to do this was never taken into account
Most that I heard was cut/done by that kind of people with fluctuating pitch and enough background noise to make the sound on it rather harsh
OK lets look at some numbers
4 x cutting lathes @ $20k each = $80,000 Amortised over 10 years = $8 per year These are ganged up driven from one input source or stand alone at will
Salary for 1 cutter say $30 K
Rent at premises and OH like phones power etc etc say $10K per year
Total we need to break even =$48 K say call it $50,000 per annum
So we need to get a gross income of around the $1,100 give or take bit per week over 48 weeks
So we have 4 lathes x 8 hours per day =32 cutting hours per day
32 cutting hours x 5 days = 160 cutting hours per week
Allow 1 hour per job for a 12" cut about right that's 160 maximum cuts per week at 100% efficiency which is almost dream stuff
So we cut it down to 50% efficiency and than we have about 80 x 1 hour cuts per week to yield $1,100 of gross income
So lets have a quick look at doing 12" albums first on Poly
material at $5 each =$400 + waste screw ups etc at 10%= $40 = $440 for the week
Stylus say $200 and another $160 for sticky labels inner bags outer sleeves for postage bits and pieces for a total of $800
So Material cost per cut = $10 each which should cover it
So for this say typical setup to pay its way cover wages and overheads and make no profit one needs to charge $1100 gross income + materials of $800 = $1900 so we divide this by 80 cuts it is than around the $24 per cut for 12"
A quick one on 7" cuts would go like this
Allow 4 x 7" cuts equivalent to one 12" but increase material by 2.5 times so it becomes $24 + $15 = $39 so divide 4 = $9.60 odd each call it $10.each
And this is a rough guide but I can assure every on out there its not far from the truth
So for any one that wants to do 50 of these 7" cuts to help a band he is better off to find another $250 and get the stuff pressed at $750 for 150 to sell at $5 each so as to get his investment back
Argh Ok He cannot sell 150 but only 50 so it is than $15 each which is about the real value of a 7" cut If they are limited to 50 pressed copies and forget about the other 450 Don't even bother with them it will not be long before they change hands at $20-50 each on E bay due to they rarity
Any one wants to differ they can certainly put up their case so we can look at it
Here you go guys a bit of bus plan and it is not cliché either
Cheers
Cheers
Lathe cut records V Pressed records Secrets Unveiled
Last edited by mossboss on Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Chris
Ok.. here is my "business plan" thinking... and as I SAID, it worked on paper and turned out to be a completely different story in reality.
My post was a cautionary tale, and was advertised as such...
But your business plan is approaching it from a totally different mindset. Nobody is going to start a lathe cutting business and hire someone on salary to do it... this would be a one-man operation on much cheaper machines than your $20K Scullys or whatever. This would all be run out of a basement, spare bedroom, garage, etc where the one man running the operation lived.
Your extensive business experience does not have a direct transference to this type of DIY operation. There are plenty of lessons to be learned from you... but you do not seem to have a grasp on what, how, or for whom I (or some other lathe cut providers) would have been aiming my services, should I have decided to provided them... which I didn't.
We walk in different worlds, Mossy. But... let's have a beer together, if our universes ever collide.
First thing: You are absolutely right... my picnic plates have plenty of surface noise (about as much as a beat up and dusty 45), and my laserdiscs just had a kind of light hiss in the background. HOWEVER, the people that are into these kinds of lathe cuts are generally punk, home recorded lofi bands, harsh noise, or "experimental", who do not require perfect fidelity. Essentially, they are a novelty.. a fun, weird artifact that the band can make some cool artwork for and sell on tour. And the fact that they began life as a picnic plate or laserdisc, really cracks people up and blows their minds. They are more collectibles than they are everyday players. They also generally include the digital downloads. And, believe me, there was NO shortage of takers whenever I would offer them up, despite all these shortcomings.
Ok.
4 lathes - definitely not $20,000 lathes, more like $1000-1500 Presto 6Ns with $100 pawn shop PA amplifiers. And no real need to amortize the cost of lathes or even amps, because as soon as you are done with them, you sell them for exactly the amount you paid, or more, depending on the kind of deal you got when you bought them. They've lasted 70 years, and they will last another 70 years, no problem. I don't even understand why you would only give your $20K lathes a 10 year usuable life, since they have already been around for at least 30-40 years at this point, and don't really degrade any if well maintained. Their value will likely only increase, but even it not, they will never be worth zero.
Picnic plates cost: $.15 each
3-4 minute song on a one sided picnic plate sells to band for $2.
Assuming everything runs smoothly and accounting for setup and switchover time, you can cut maybe 10 picnic plates, per lathe, per hour.
So... $2x40 plates an hour = $80. Subtract 40x$.15 = 3.00 and you get $74 an hour. Assume that you will probably break a needle on occasion (picnic plates don't wear them out, but when you are dealing with 4 lathes at once, it's easy to make mistakes and/or drop something.) So, on PAPER, it is NOT unrealistic to come out to around $60/hr.
Laserdiscs were similar... I would have only offered one sided cuts, because for some reason, it seems like 75% of the laserdiscs I find are somewhat lightly warped in a bowl shape. And, again, there were no shortage of takers for $10 one sided, laserdiscs, with 15 min. per side. So with laserdiscs, assuming that I have to spend a few extra minutes cutting down an adapter, securing it in the middle with a label, etc. could cut 2 per hour, per lathe... again $10x2x4 = $80. Subtract $8 in laserdisc costs (I found a woman who sold me 300 laserdiscs for a buck a disc), and figure in a little extra needle wear (I go through a $90 needle about every 400 minutes).
But, as I said, it proved next to impossible for me to keep the lathes all running and cutting optimal (for the medium) sounding records. I could probably do a little better now that I've worked on them more, but I was generally down to around 2 lathes at any given time, and trying to fix the wonky lathes in between switchovers. It just got to be too much.
Is it impossible using THIS model of novelty picnic plates and laserdiscs? No, not at all. Is it, in practice, flawed? yeah. But it could be a decent living for someone with no family, mortgage or responsibility in a cheap city to live. Triple the pay of McDonald's, even on a bad day if you've got a few thousand dollars startup money (or a credit card), a little mechanical skill, and a whole lot of patience and ingenuity.
HOWEVER, If you add in lasercut blank poly/acrylic, offering up long records without an extra charge per minute, etc like Tommi and SPS did, ON TOP of only cutting on 1 or 2 lathes??? Totally ridiculous and impossible to make a decent wage.
My post was a cautionary tale, and was advertised as such...
But your business plan is approaching it from a totally different mindset. Nobody is going to start a lathe cutting business and hire someone on salary to do it... this would be a one-man operation on much cheaper machines than your $20K Scullys or whatever. This would all be run out of a basement, spare bedroom, garage, etc where the one man running the operation lived.
Your extensive business experience does not have a direct transference to this type of DIY operation. There are plenty of lessons to be learned from you... but you do not seem to have a grasp on what, how, or for whom I (or some other lathe cut providers) would have been aiming my services, should I have decided to provided them... which I didn't.
We walk in different worlds, Mossy. But... let's have a beer together, if our universes ever collide.
First thing: You are absolutely right... my picnic plates have plenty of surface noise (about as much as a beat up and dusty 45), and my laserdiscs just had a kind of light hiss in the background. HOWEVER, the people that are into these kinds of lathe cuts are generally punk, home recorded lofi bands, harsh noise, or "experimental", who do not require perfect fidelity. Essentially, they are a novelty.. a fun, weird artifact that the band can make some cool artwork for and sell on tour. And the fact that they began life as a picnic plate or laserdisc, really cracks people up and blows their minds. They are more collectibles than they are everyday players. They also generally include the digital downloads. And, believe me, there was NO shortage of takers whenever I would offer them up, despite all these shortcomings.
Ok.
4 lathes - definitely not $20,000 lathes, more like $1000-1500 Presto 6Ns with $100 pawn shop PA amplifiers. And no real need to amortize the cost of lathes or even amps, because as soon as you are done with them, you sell them for exactly the amount you paid, or more, depending on the kind of deal you got when you bought them. They've lasted 70 years, and they will last another 70 years, no problem. I don't even understand why you would only give your $20K lathes a 10 year usuable life, since they have already been around for at least 30-40 years at this point, and don't really degrade any if well maintained. Their value will likely only increase, but even it not, they will never be worth zero.
Picnic plates cost: $.15 each
3-4 minute song on a one sided picnic plate sells to band for $2.
Assuming everything runs smoothly and accounting for setup and switchover time, you can cut maybe 10 picnic plates, per lathe, per hour.
So... $2x40 plates an hour = $80. Subtract 40x$.15 = 3.00 and you get $74 an hour. Assume that you will probably break a needle on occasion (picnic plates don't wear them out, but when you are dealing with 4 lathes at once, it's easy to make mistakes and/or drop something.) So, on PAPER, it is NOT unrealistic to come out to around $60/hr.
Laserdiscs were similar... I would have only offered one sided cuts, because for some reason, it seems like 75% of the laserdiscs I find are somewhat lightly warped in a bowl shape. And, again, there were no shortage of takers for $10 one sided, laserdiscs, with 15 min. per side. So with laserdiscs, assuming that I have to spend a few extra minutes cutting down an adapter, securing it in the middle with a label, etc. could cut 2 per hour, per lathe... again $10x2x4 = $80. Subtract $8 in laserdisc costs (I found a woman who sold me 300 laserdiscs for a buck a disc), and figure in a little extra needle wear (I go through a $90 needle about every 400 minutes).
But, as I said, it proved next to impossible for me to keep the lathes all running and cutting optimal (for the medium) sounding records. I could probably do a little better now that I've worked on them more, but I was generally down to around 2 lathes at any given time, and trying to fix the wonky lathes in between switchovers. It just got to be too much.
Is it impossible using THIS model of novelty picnic plates and laserdiscs? No, not at all. Is it, in practice, flawed? yeah. But it could be a decent living for someone with no family, mortgage or responsibility in a cheap city to live. Triple the pay of McDonald's, even on a bad day if you've got a few thousand dollars startup money (or a credit card), a little mechanical skill, and a whole lot of patience and ingenuity.
HOWEVER, If you add in lasercut blank poly/acrylic, offering up long records without an extra charge per minute, etc like Tommi and SPS did, ON TOP of only cutting on 1 or 2 lathes??? Totally ridiculous and impossible to make a decent wage.
Argh Mike
Thats why Tommie SpS and any one who would do this will go bust or have gone bust and that is why you could not do it man
You are arguing with yourself On paper it worked in practice it did not I could not do more than x as the lathes where troublesome But dont pay $20 k as it is to much Pay $1 k Its ok
What sort of crap is this?
I know The operation was successful but the patient DIED! one of those deals than ?
Why spend 20K per lathe? So they do the job
Do it on 1k piles of crap its ok You go bust
Why buy Blanks Buy old laser discs Spend to much time looking for them than inconsistent results
Your plan is a recipe for disaster man a few people here already know it including yourself
You cannot turn pig shit into Strawberry jam Mike and these old piles of 70 year old crap are just that Piles of pig crap
There are parallel universes indeed so we may just never meet as we are side by side but this one is a converging one so you just never know
Cheers
Thats why Tommie SpS and any one who would do this will go bust or have gone bust and that is why you could not do it man
You are arguing with yourself On paper it worked in practice it did not I could not do more than x as the lathes where troublesome But dont pay $20 k as it is to much Pay $1 k Its ok
What sort of crap is this?
I know The operation was successful but the patient DIED! one of those deals than ?
Why spend 20K per lathe? So they do the job
Do it on 1k piles of crap its ok You go bust
Why buy Blanks Buy old laser discs Spend to much time looking for them than inconsistent results
Your plan is a recipe for disaster man a few people here already know it including yourself
You cannot turn pig shit into Strawberry jam Mike and these old piles of 70 year old crap are just that Piles of pig crap
There are parallel universes indeed so we may just never meet as we are side by side but this one is a converging one so you just never know
Cheers
Chris
Chris... How long are you and I going to chase our own tails?mossboss wrote:Argh Mike
Thats why Tommie SpS and any one who would do this will go bust or have gone bust and that is why you could not do it man
You are arguing with yourself On paper it worked in practice it did not I could not do more than x as the lathes where troublesome But dont pay $20 k as it is to much Pay $1 k Its ok
What sort of crap is this?
I know The operation was successful but the patient DIED! one of those deals than ?
Why spend 20K per lathe? So they do the job
Do it on 1k piles of crap its ok You go bust
Why buy Blanks Buy old laser discs Spend to much time looking for them than inconsistent results
Your plan is a recipe for disaster man a few people here already know it including yourself
You cannot turn pig shit into Strawberry jam Mike and these old piles of 70 year old crap are just that Piles of pig crap
There are parallel universes indeed so we may just never meet as we are side by side but this one is a converging one so you just never know
Cheers
You skim my posts and COMPLETELY miss or ignore the main point. Like reading Moby Dick and saying... Oh, it's a just book about a whale. Or reading 1984 and saying, it's a story about a guy who writes for a newspaper.
The main purpose of my reply was to show that the numbers you used had absolutely no hold on reality for anyone who would even momentarily consider starting this kind of operation as a business. Nobody that thinks the way you do, or has the resources you do, would ever consider this. I laid out the rationale that people like me might have, because it is exactly the thought process I used.
There are a lot of idealistic, bright eyed youngsters, who are going to look at your business plan with a 20K lathe, $30K cutter salary, brick and mortar location, and say, I don't need ANY of that crap to start my business. And to cater to a small niche, they are absolutely right. But, they would find out, like I did, that occasionally a business works on paper and not in reality. So, hopefully these people who have a similar idea (and I talk to about 10 people a month who DO think they can make a good business cutting records before they've even touched a lathe) will learn from my mistakes and take what I said into consideration.
Also....
Why buy 4 $1000 lathes instead of 4 $20K lathes? BECAUSE NOBODY HAS $80K TO BUY FARKING LATHES! Even $20K for a lathe is WAY too much if you aren't planning on doing mastering.
Also, $1,000 lathes are a pain in the ass on occasion, but they WORK. And, in general, they work pretty well. The single 6n I've been running recently hasn't given me problems in months. When you try dividing your attention between four, then the problems begin.
Am I going to be soliciting Radiohead to let me cut their next record on my 6N, no. But, can I cut a pretty decent lacquer for a dude that recorded his record on a cassette four track? Definitely. And this is the kind of music I prefer, generally, any way.
It's like the difference between buying a 15 year old Honda and a brand new Rolls Royce. Will you have to do a little more maintenance to the Honda, and have a little less comfortable ride? Sure, but it will still get you where you need to go, as long as you don't want to go somewhere fancy.
Anybody have connections at the History or Discovery Channel?
Pitch them the MossBoss/PIAPTK Record Cutting Reality Show. The Odd Couple meets The Real World meets American Chopper for vinyl nerds.
Watch two bullheaded record cutters bang heads and babble in circles about things 99% of the world doesn't care about. Every Monday at 8pm only on the Discovery Channel!
Pitch them the MossBoss/PIAPTK Record Cutting Reality Show. The Odd Couple meets The Real World meets American Chopper for vinyl nerds.
Watch two bullheaded record cutters bang heads and babble in circles about things 99% of the world doesn't care about. Every Monday at 8pm only on the Discovery Channel!
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blacknwhite
- Posts: 483
- Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:57 am
- Location: US
I know it's frustrating for you both and I feel for you both, but I'm finding your "brawls" interesting... seriously, it draws out some great information & experiences from you both, that everyone can learn from (even if it's painful).piaptk wrote:Anybody have connections at the History or Discovery Channel?
Pitch them the MossBoss/PIAPTK Record Cutting Reality Show. The Odd Couple meets The Real World meets American Chopper for vinyl nerds.
Watch two bullheaded record cutters bang heads and babble in circles about things 99% of the world doesn't care about. Every Monday at 8pm only on the Discovery Channel!
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monkey1553
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:46 pm
- Location: Mile High City USA!
Hey guys this would beat the hell out of American Pickers or Pawn Stars. Lots of thrills and drama for sure. You would have to have some episodes were Mike is attempting to keep the four prestos up and running simultaneously. 
Then just throw in a load of angry customers, some broken diamonds, warped poly and you have got a show!
-Michael
Then just throw in a load of angry customers, some broken diamonds, warped poly and you have got a show! -Michael
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Factorcuts
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:54 am
- Location: Oakland, Ca
Hilarious!!
I put a long post on the cymbalism thread that would have did well in this thread also!
My hybrid system is made of all current day stuff, the sp15 is fine till I find a killer sp10, I would love a better head, but its working like a champ...the vacuum is fine, the heat lamps make it so I dont even get heating wire on my diamonds anymore...souri and I are on killer terms and he treats me top notch...all my gear rocks...but I still want to cut on a real machine...
Um im wondering if at some point this spring I couldnt maybe get some kind of apprentice situation with the bossofmoss, but whatever! I plan on taking a elk hunting guide class in the late summer thru fall up in montana, so maybe winter of 2012? Pipedream? Maybe
I respect the presto magicians and all, wrecked cut operators and such...i could see maybe taking the drive system out and making a new overhead or something, but I wouldnt be doing it myself, im just not that mechanical and ambitious...so i went middle road,a souri modified system, waiting for a better head and more upgrades.
I have money and other pursuits, so I didnt really want to start anything more than a hobby bussiness anyways, but yeah plastic cutting is a failure bussiness unless u charge like its a dubplate...
In the meantime its fun to watch grown men fight! It sucks to fight tho...
My hybrid system is made of all current day stuff, the sp15 is fine till I find a killer sp10, I would love a better head, but its working like a champ...the vacuum is fine, the heat lamps make it so I dont even get heating wire on my diamonds anymore...souri and I are on killer terms and he treats me top notch...all my gear rocks...but I still want to cut on a real machine...
Um im wondering if at some point this spring I couldnt maybe get some kind of apprentice situation with the bossofmoss, but whatever! I plan on taking a elk hunting guide class in the late summer thru fall up in montana, so maybe winter of 2012? Pipedream? Maybe
I respect the presto magicians and all, wrecked cut operators and such...i could see maybe taking the drive system out and making a new overhead or something, but I wouldnt be doing it myself, im just not that mechanical and ambitious...so i went middle road,a souri modified system, waiting for a better head and more upgrades.
I have money and other pursuits, so I didnt really want to start anything more than a hobby bussiness anyways, but yeah plastic cutting is a failure bussiness unless u charge like its a dubplate...
In the meantime its fun to watch grown men fight! It sucks to fight tho...