Noisy K8 cuts, what the deal?

This is where record cutters raise questions about cutting, and trade wisdom and experiment results. We love Scully, Neumann, Presto, & Rek-O-Kut lathes and Wilcox-Gay Recordios (among others). We are excited by the various modern pro and semi-pro systems, too, in production and development. We use strange, extinct disc-based dictation machines. And other stuff, too.

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Self-lather
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Noisy K8 cuts, what the deal?

Post: # 13195Unread post Self-lather
Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:04 pm

Hey guys, I'm hoping someone can help me out with the quality of the cuts I'm getting on my K8.

So awhile back I had Gib restore a K8 for me, I figured I'd just start out with a machine that was in good working order. I've been cutting into a lot of unorthodox materials such as cd-rs and lexan. I also tried cutting into an audiodisc and a presto disc, as well as some wilcox-gay blanks.

I'm getting so much surface noise its ridiculous. I've tried every angle and tried adjusting the depth in each scenario. I've got my needle angled in accordance with the presto manual.

When Gib sent it to me, he had done some test cuts of just a sound tone onto an audiodisc. This sounds great. Very noise free. So I figured at this point it must just be the weird materials I'm cutting into, and I figured my cutting needle might need to be replaced.

Yesterday I tried cutting into some clean laquers (transco) with a brand new saphire tipped microgroove stylus. No go. It's still full of noise.

I've played around with using a light, but I'm not really sure what the best set up is. I'm also considering using a heated stylus.

I would love any help I can get.

Thanks

-Thomas
Last edited by Self-lather on Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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cymbalism
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Post: # 13198Unread post cymbalism
Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:45 pm

sounds like your stylus is toast my friend
all the best!
- tommie 'plan 9' emmi
poly-cut lathe cuts / cymbalism recordings

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Self-lather
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Post: # 13203Unread post Self-lather
Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:56 pm

The stylus is brand new, I just got it in the mail yesterday, and its never been used on anything but proper laquers. Its still really really noisy.

-Thomas

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JayDC
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Post: # 13209Unread post JayDC
Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:47 pm

is it heated? are you using a lamp at least?

heat will make it less noisy on the surface..

if u don't have stylus heating, use a high wattage (100 watt) normal light bulb, not a cfl.. just hover it over the plate about 5 inches.. turn on the lamp, and start spinning the record.. let this go on for like 2 or 3 minutes, then start cutting..

the angle of the dangle is very important, being the slightest bit off can cause all kinds of noise..

also, make sure that hte stylus is in the correct way, and that its perfectly straight.. sometime the ridge in the shank doesn't always catch the holding screw correctly..

on other thing, if you not cutting any music or speach, the surface noise will appear more easily.. one you apply a program material, you should not notice it as much..

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piaptk
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Post: # 13211Unread post piaptk
Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:53 pm

If it's a brand new stylus that has never cut on plastic, you might be cutting too deep... if you went down to the aluminum on the lacquer even once, it could have totally wasted your stylus. I ruined about 4 or 5 of them when I first started cutting by various snafus.

Can you hear the music quietly coming from the stylus before you put it on the lacquer?

Also, I recently got a stylus from Apollo that had the stone twisted 90 degrees in the shank! I don't know how it happened, but obviously it didn't cut worth a crap. Make sure that when you look at the front of the stylus, the flat part is straight across and not sideways.

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JayDC
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Post: # 13213Unread post JayDC
Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:03 pm

piaptk wrote:Also, I recently got a stylus from Apollo that had the stone twisted 90 degrees in the shank! I don't know how it happened, but obviously it didn't cut worth a crap. Make sure that when you look at the front of the stylus, the flat part is straight across and not sideways.

That's just not cool, I'm sure they would replace it, but for being the ONLY company in the USA supplying this stuff, you would think they would have better quality control... Form what I'm seeing, since they bought transco, the quality is dropping, and the price is going up.. EXACTLY what monopoly's do..

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Self-lather
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Post: # 13214Unread post Self-lather
Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:09 pm

piaptk wrote:If it's a brand new stylus that has never cut on plastic, you might be cutting too deep... if you went down to the aluminum on the lacquer even once, it could have totally wasted your stylus. I ruined about 4 or 5 of them when I first started cutting by various snafus.

Can you hear the music quietly coming from the stylus before you put it on the lacquer?

Also, I recently got a stylus from Apollo that had the stone twisted 90 degrees in the shank! I don't know how it happened, but obviously it didn't cut worth a crap. Make sure that when you look at the front of the stylus, the flat part is straight across and not sideways.
Hey, I don't think I've cut down to the aluminum, but it is possible. I didn't ever go to heavy with it, but you never know. Is there an easy way to check to see if my stylus tip is busted? I think I have a microscope somewhere at my parents house.

I do hear the music, the head is definitely working.

Would not using a heating source cause excessive surface noise?

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JayDC
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Post: # 13215Unread post JayDC
Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:16 pm

Self-lather wrote: Would not using a heating source cause excessive surface noise?
yes, that is one of two reason they came up with the idea..

the second reason is that as you go form the outside to the inside, the frequency range drifts.. That's why presto invented the 160A/B Diameter EQ, to compensate.. Once they figured out stylus heating, the diameter EQ was obsolete..

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Self-lather
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Post: # 13218Unread post Self-lather
Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:48 pm

JayDC wrote:
Self-lather wrote: Would not using a heating source cause excessive surface noise?
yes, that is one of two reason they came up with the idea..

the second reason is that as you go form the outside to the inside, the frequency range drifts.. That's why presto invented the 160A/B Diameter EQ, to compensate.. Once they figured out stylus heating, the diameter EQ was obsolete..
Cool, I'll give it a try. So many possible issues, thanks for your help!

-Thomas

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JayDC
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Post: # 13221Unread post JayDC
Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:23 pm

yeah, thats how it is for the first few months, but once u have learned, and setup everything correctly, its golden.. and like riding a bike ;)

another thing.. what cutterhead do you have, and whats its ohm rating.. if its 8 to 15 ohms, it might be better to drive it off a more modern mosfet amp (home theater style) Thats what I'm doing right now, and its super sexy, coz I can utilize the optical input to the amp from my computer..

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cymbalism
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Post: # 13223Unread post cymbalism
Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:28 pm

Another possibility, the lacquers could be dried out. Are they new from apollo or old stock that were open?
all the best!
- tommie 'plan 9' emmi
poly-cut lathe cuts / cymbalism recordings

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Self-lather
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Post: # 13234Unread post Self-lather
Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:35 pm

cymbalism wrote:Another possibility, the lacquers could be dried out. Are they new from apollo or old stock that were open?
Its brand new stock that I ordered from Apollo. Although, that could definitely be the case with all this old-new Wilcox-Gay and Presto blanks that I have.

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Self-lather
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Post: # 13235Unread post Self-lather
Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:36 pm

JayDC wrote:yeah, thats how it is for the first few months, but once u have learned, and setup everything correctly, its golden.. and like riding a bike ;)

another thing.. what cutterhead do you have, and whats its ohm rating.. if its 8 to 15 ohms, it might be better to drive it off a more modern mosfet amp (home theater style) Thats what I'm doing right now, and its super sexy, coz I can utilize the optical input to the amp from my computer..
It never occurred to me to do this. That would be rad, and it would probably help the sound out a bit. I'll check it when I get home. As far as I know, its the stock head on the K8.

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JayDC
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Post: # 13236Unread post JayDC
Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:49 pm

well presto is know for making 15ohm, and 500ohm heads.. if yours is 500ohm, you have have the coil rewound to 8 or 15..

My presto 1-c head is a 15 ohm coil, I drive it with 200 watts @ 8 ohms, with come out to about 110 watts.. I have the amp set at -9db, 0 is the loudest it goes..

Tube amps are great pieces of equipment, they color the sound a little, that is one of the reason they are popular..

I like my setup, and after tweeking out the riaa curve (thanks to markrob for coding a great plug-in, coz this was such a bitch to setup using a 10band eq) I am able to get a great sound and loudness level that surpass everything everyone told me about my equipment..

I just didn't want the tubes coloring my sound, since I'm spending so much time figuring out what the best settings on everything are to get the most out of it..

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subkontrabob
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Post: # 13241Unread post subkontrabob
Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:42 pm

JayDC wrote:well presto is know for making 15ohm, and 500ohm heads.. if yours is 500ohm, you have have the coil rewound to 8 or 15..
just crossed my mind, maybe a transformer could be used if it's 500 ohm?

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Self-lather
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Post: # 13249Unread post Self-lather
Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:55 am

JayDC wrote:is it heated? are you using a lamp at least?

heat will make it less noisy on the surface..

if u don't have stylus heating, use a high wattage (100 watt) normal light bulb, not a cfl.. just hover it over the plate about 5 inches.. turn on the lamp, and start spinning the record.. let this go on for like 2 or 3 minutes, then start cutting..

the angle of the dangle is very important, being the slightest bit off can cause all kinds of noise..

also, make sure that hte stylus is in the correct way, and that its perfectly straight.. sometime the ridge in the shank doesn't always catch the holding screw correctly..

on other thing, if you not cutting any music or speach, the surface noise will appear more easily.. one you apply a program material, you should not notice it as much..
Hey, I played around with a 100w light last night. It did help a little, but my results are still nothing to write home about.

I am 99% certain I haven't killed the new stylus, as I've been really careful about not going to heavy.

I've kind of hit a brick wall. I think I might post some pics/videos of the machine in action to see if anyone can identify any obvious mistakes I'm making.

If only I had a local chapter of Lathe Trolls I could consult!

-Thomas

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JayDC
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Post: # 13250Unread post JayDC
Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:18 pm

yeha, i dunno.. I never used just the lamp, i was fortunate that my lathe already had stylus heating..

That might be the issue though, and its not hard to rig up, if you search the forum, you'll find tons of ways of doing this..

The way its currently setup on my rig is super easy. basically, there is a piece of plastic on the face of the cutter head, with 2 screws and bolts on each side. One side is connected to a 6vac transformer, and the other side is grounded to the screw on the head that holds the outer casing on, not the stylus pin.

I just let it warm up for about 5 minutes, then cut. The primary reason my setup uses AC current is that the previous owner tapped into the transformer that powers the microscope light. Also I think, because it has been said having DC current around a cuttinghead is not a good idea, although lots of people will say the opposite now..

I think a quick trip to the hack shack [radio shack] can get you what you need, but i would not ask any questions, the people that work there are not the same caliber as they used to be.

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Self-lather
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Post: # 13254Unread post Self-lather
Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:12 pm

JayDC wrote:yeha, i dunno.. I never used just the lamp, i was fortunate that my lathe already had stylus heating..

That might be the issue though, and its not hard to rig up, if you search the forum, you'll find tons of ways of doing this..

The way its currently setup on my rig is super easy. basically, there is a piece of plastic on the face of the cutter head, with 2 screws and bolts on each side. One side is connected to a 6vac transformer, and the other side is grounded to the screw on the head that holds the outer casing on, not the stylus pin.

I just let it warm up for about 5 minutes, then cut. The primary reason my setup uses AC current is that the previous owner tapped into the transformer that powers the microscope light. Also I think, because it has been said having DC current around a cuttinghead is not a good idea, although lots of people will say the opposite now..

I think a quick trip to the hack shack [radio shack] can get you what you need, but i would not ask any questions, the people that work there are not the same caliber as they used to be.
So is it just nichrome wire that is being heated? Any chance I could get a pic?

-Thomas

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piaptk
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Post: # 13255Unread post piaptk
Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:26 pm

Heating the stylus isn't going to improve major noise.... it only helps with very minor noise... if its a super noisy cut, there is something else the matter, most likely the stylus. Especially if you can hear the music coming out of the head, but it's not translating on the lacquer. But old lacquers 70% of the time sound awful. You should buy a $50 USB microscope to check your styli... it works relatively well.
Is the groove tracking correctly?

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JayDC
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Post: # 13256Unread post JayDC
Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:47 pm

Self-lather wrote:
So is it just nichrome wire that is being heated? Any chance I could get a pic?

-Thomas
yes, I'm using 36 gage wire on all the stylus I self wound.. Looks like 40 gage is what is used on NIB stylii from apollo..

Nichrome is resistance wire, so when coiled, it does not create a magnetic field (like copper) but rather heat from the resistance of the wire..

You can get nichrome on ebay.. I got 100 feet of it for about 5 bucks..

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