first of all hello everybody.
i have been reading this forum for quite a while trying to get some information:) it's quite hard for me to find an objective statement from someone because some people seem to have personell issues with certain people...
i would be really happy if someone could give me a tip what to get but just people who work or worked with both machines!
is the sound quality of the kingston really better or do i get the same quality with the vinylrecorder.
the thing is i defenitely wanna cut into long lasting vinyl not into acetates.
and is it possible to swap the vinylrecorder cutterhead to a neumann one?
i am new in this business but i really wanna get into it.
cheers guys
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montalbano
- Posts: 139
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:03 pm
- Location: Settala (MI), Italy
- Contact:
Hello Fraggie
Vinylium's stuff is designed to cut standard lacquers and dubplates manufactured by the leading companies (Apollo, Transco).
You can find a first answer to your question on the Vinylium's site:
http://www.vinylium.ch/page/content/index.asp?MenuID=37&ID=62&Menu=1&Item=10.1.1
There you can see that the life of the dubplates you can use with Vinylium's stuff depends on which playback stylus is used and generally these dubplates can be played about 75-100 times.
Vinylrecorder Souri's stuff is completely different, custom made blanks, custom made diamonds and custom made RIAA. Blanks last much longer and so do the diamonds, if you use them correctly, we managed to cut about 100 blanks with just one diamond; the adjustable heating helps a lot because when diamond comes near end you have to heat it more.
Souri's material is much harder and Souri's diamonds are designed for that. They are a bit longer than standard stylii and I think this is made to compensate the resonance they have which is a bit different from the standard stylii. Also the Souri's RIAA is rather different from the more or less standard RIAAs. It is mainly because Souri's cutterhead has two simple tweeters while SC-99 has to powerful magnets; we have to put a thick rubber slipmat over the plate when we use the SC-99.
To sum it up, with Vinylium stuff when having correctly calibrated the feedback you have a flat frequency response, you can cut lacquers or dubplates with professional results - use standard sapphires or vinylium's diamonds; with Souri's stuff you can cut decent records with a lot of handmade adjusting and premastering done BY EAR (frequency response is a bit narrower than Vinylium's, eq - feedback - correct heating - deesser mucst be adjusted etc.) and no one will complain about them. The record will last much longer than the other dubplates.
So you see it all depends on what you're looking for.
A Souri's disc can be sold for 30€ or even less, people will be happy with the result. A Vinylium dubplate, as a matter of fact, worths twice the amound, either for the blanks costs and for the precision of the result.
Finally:
- you can't cut lacquers with Souri's machine and standard sapphire (too weak trebles - you can change the eq but it would be an artificial result)
- you can't cut Souri's discs with Vinylium's machine and diamonds (too high noise) - you can use Souri's diamonds but you would have to change the RIAA, the feedback, it's a mess so don't do that
- you can't cut copper blanks with Souri's machine like someone asked here - even using the external motor - it doesn't work, you will break the diamond
In every case, a long lasting record = extruded plastic, 180 C steam, and 100 tons pressure.
Hope this helps
Cheers from the Bel Paese
Vinylium's stuff is designed to cut standard lacquers and dubplates manufactured by the leading companies (Apollo, Transco).
You can find a first answer to your question on the Vinylium's site:
http://www.vinylium.ch/page/content/index.asp?MenuID=37&ID=62&Menu=1&Item=10.1.1
There you can see that the life of the dubplates you can use with Vinylium's stuff depends on which playback stylus is used and generally these dubplates can be played about 75-100 times.
Vinylrecorder Souri's stuff is completely different, custom made blanks, custom made diamonds and custom made RIAA. Blanks last much longer and so do the diamonds, if you use them correctly, we managed to cut about 100 blanks with just one diamond; the adjustable heating helps a lot because when diamond comes near end you have to heat it more.
Souri's material is much harder and Souri's diamonds are designed for that. They are a bit longer than standard stylii and I think this is made to compensate the resonance they have which is a bit different from the standard stylii. Also the Souri's RIAA is rather different from the more or less standard RIAAs. It is mainly because Souri's cutterhead has two simple tweeters while SC-99 has to powerful magnets; we have to put a thick rubber slipmat over the plate when we use the SC-99.
To sum it up, with Vinylium stuff when having correctly calibrated the feedback you have a flat frequency response, you can cut lacquers or dubplates with professional results - use standard sapphires or vinylium's diamonds; with Souri's stuff you can cut decent records with a lot of handmade adjusting and premastering done BY EAR (frequency response is a bit narrower than Vinylium's, eq - feedback - correct heating - deesser mucst be adjusted etc.) and no one will complain about them. The record will last much longer than the other dubplates.
So you see it all depends on what you're looking for.
A Souri's disc can be sold for 30€ or even less, people will be happy with the result. A Vinylium dubplate, as a matter of fact, worths twice the amound, either for the blanks costs and for the precision of the result.
Finally:
- you can't cut lacquers with Souri's machine and standard sapphire (too weak trebles - you can change the eq but it would be an artificial result)
- you can't cut Souri's discs with Vinylium's machine and diamonds (too high noise) - you can use Souri's diamonds but you would have to change the RIAA, the feedback, it's a mess so don't do that
- you can't cut copper blanks with Souri's machine like someone asked here - even using the external motor - it doesn't work, you will break the diamond
In every case, a long lasting record = extruded plastic, 180 C steam, and 100 tons pressure.
Hope this helps
Cheers from the Bel Paese
thanks for your tests.
just one comment.
you can use souri diamond with sc-99. the only problem is to get a diamond.
even the souri plates. but same problem. you can not buy the stuff.
but there is no need to change feedback. it doesnt change with changing stylus.,..theoretically yes because of the increased mass of the stylus. but in practice i could never hear any effect.
i was cutting with sc-99, vc200 amps on my portable presto in berlin side by side with a souri cutter and we both used souri diamonds and lexan plates.
we where cutting 4 days around 100 discs , many of them both sides.
the souri diamonds lasted a little (about twice the time) longer on my machine than on the souri cutter. this because of the increased weight on the souri machine. it was a little more than he now recommends. i guess it was 15 gramms on the souri machine and on my machine around 10-12 gramms. not sure about those values anymore. but the difference was like 3-4 gramms and so the stylus was used more on the machine with more weight on the head.
ahh.an important detail. we used no stylus heating.
so this has nothing to do with the machines. it has to do with the cutting angle and the force you put on the cutterhead....
just one comment.
you can use souri diamond with sc-99. the only problem is to get a diamond.
even the souri plates. but same problem. you can not buy the stuff.
but there is no need to change feedback. it doesnt change with changing stylus.,..theoretically yes because of the increased mass of the stylus. but in practice i could never hear any effect.
i was cutting with sc-99, vc200 amps on my portable presto in berlin side by side with a souri cutter and we both used souri diamonds and lexan plates.
we where cutting 4 days around 100 discs , many of them both sides.
the souri diamonds lasted a little (about twice the time) longer on my machine than on the souri cutter. this because of the increased weight on the souri machine. it was a little more than he now recommends. i guess it was 15 gramms on the souri machine and on my machine around 10-12 gramms. not sure about those values anymore. but the difference was like 3-4 gramms and so the stylus was used more on the machine with more weight on the head.
ahh.an important detail. we used no stylus heating.
so this has nothing to do with the machines. it has to do with the cutting angle and the force you put on the cutterhead....
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montalbano
- Posts: 139
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:03 pm
- Location: Settala (MI), Italy
- Contact:
This is going to be an interesting topic, even if a bit off-topic...
Anyway:
- we usually cut Souri's discs with an almost flat (0°) angle of the diamond, just like DMM, and lacquers with an angle of 15°
- about using Souri's diamonds with the SC-99, never tried... because usually I use that cutterhead only for lacquers. But will try. Because if it works, then it will save me a lot of work on the machine (recalibrating, setup etc.)
- weights (Souri): usually we use a weight of 10-15 grams when diamond is new, but after some cuts we go a bit heavier; but the best way to look at what you cut would be to use a microscope and see the size of the groove. The serious microscope is not the microscope supplied with the Vinylrecorder (it's 10x)
Finally, a not-yet covered matter is the recorded volume.
As far as we've seen, with Souri's system you can generally cut at higher levels than with the Vinylium system; but there's a problem: the higher you go with the volume, the more problems you have. This is not only a matter of grooves suction and wowing (forget cutting high volumes and deep grooves without the external motor), but of frequency response. We have seen that the frequency response is good up to +2/+3 dB; above, you start getting problems, moreover on high frequencies.
So the output volume - if you want decent results - is practically the same you can get with the SC-99.
On the other side, talking about beginners, Souri's cutterhead is practically impossible to blow; while the SC-99 is more fragile - for example if you send a 0dB 1kHz signal to the Souri's head, nothing happens, but do it with the SC99 and you will probably blow the fuses (hopefully - otherwhise you will blow the cutterhead). It's a matter of feedback. More feedback = more risks but better results. The SC-99's should be calibrated with a 5kHz signal. Vinylium's stuff, though, has all manuals showing all steps, while for Souri's stuff you have to do all by yourself or ask.
Heating: from our experiences, when diamond comes near end, heating is the only way to get good results. This is not theory but real experience. With new diamonds it has practically no sense - in most cases you have more noise. But both with VC200 and Souri's machine you can easily check the noise by cutting a blank groove, adjust heating, putting the playback arm, switch the control room playback and hear by yourself.
MUCH depends on the temperature of the room you are cutting in. 25 - 30° C are enough. Use a fancoil. And anyway - heat whatever you are cutting (NOT lacquers - we are talking about vinyl - PVC or whatever) with powerful lamps. Use an infrared thermometer. Check the temp: 40° - 45° C will be OK.
Hey this is for a contribution purpose, moreover for Fraggie - I am absolutely not a master in this. I had the disgrace of buying an Alpha Toolex AD1202 some time ago, and for example Moss knows how much time it took me to setup the plant and make it work! So I am actually more into pressing than into cutting, even if I keep on cutting for my customers. It is just my experience so far. Nothing else.
Anyway:
- we usually cut Souri's discs with an almost flat (0°) angle of the diamond, just like DMM, and lacquers with an angle of 15°
- about using Souri's diamonds with the SC-99, never tried... because usually I use that cutterhead only for lacquers. But will try. Because if it works, then it will save me a lot of work on the machine (recalibrating, setup etc.)
- weights (Souri): usually we use a weight of 10-15 grams when diamond is new, but after some cuts we go a bit heavier; but the best way to look at what you cut would be to use a microscope and see the size of the groove. The serious microscope is not the microscope supplied with the Vinylrecorder (it's 10x)
Finally, a not-yet covered matter is the recorded volume.
As far as we've seen, with Souri's system you can generally cut at higher levels than with the Vinylium system; but there's a problem: the higher you go with the volume, the more problems you have. This is not only a matter of grooves suction and wowing (forget cutting high volumes and deep grooves without the external motor), but of frequency response. We have seen that the frequency response is good up to +2/+3 dB; above, you start getting problems, moreover on high frequencies.
So the output volume - if you want decent results - is practically the same you can get with the SC-99.
On the other side, talking about beginners, Souri's cutterhead is practically impossible to blow; while the SC-99 is more fragile - for example if you send a 0dB 1kHz signal to the Souri's head, nothing happens, but do it with the SC99 and you will probably blow the fuses (hopefully - otherwhise you will blow the cutterhead). It's a matter of feedback. More feedback = more risks but better results. The SC-99's should be calibrated with a 5kHz signal. Vinylium's stuff, though, has all manuals showing all steps, while for Souri's stuff you have to do all by yourself or ask.
Heating: from our experiences, when diamond comes near end, heating is the only way to get good results. This is not theory but real experience. With new diamonds it has practically no sense - in most cases you have more noise. But both with VC200 and Souri's machine you can easily check the noise by cutting a blank groove, adjust heating, putting the playback arm, switch the control room playback and hear by yourself.
MUCH depends on the temperature of the room you are cutting in. 25 - 30° C are enough. Use a fancoil. And anyway - heat whatever you are cutting (NOT lacquers - we are talking about vinyl - PVC or whatever) with powerful lamps. Use an infrared thermometer. Check the temp: 40° - 45° C will be OK.
Hey this is for a contribution purpose, moreover for Fraggie - I am absolutely not a master in this. I had the disgrace of buying an Alpha Toolex AD1202 some time ago, and for example Moss knows how much time it took me to setup the plant and make it work! So I am actually more into pressing than into cutting, even if I keep on cutting for my customers. It is just my experience so far. Nothing else.
hi montalbano,
thank you so much for sharing and telling your experience.
if i ever release my music on vinyl you can be sure to get the job:)
have you ever tried to put a little bit oil or something similar on the plate?
i'm a mechanical engineer and i could imagine the diamond last longer?
does it effect the noise?
usually if you machine parts on a normal lathe
(i'm talking about machining metal) the tool lasts longer and the surface of the part you are maching is better.
look the volume is not a critical point for me anyway i personally think very loud records= less dynamic
but thats just my opinion.
thanks a lot man
greetings to italy
thank you so much for sharing and telling your experience.
if i ever release my music on vinyl you can be sure to get the job:)
have you ever tried to put a little bit oil or something similar on the plate?
i'm a mechanical engineer and i could imagine the diamond last longer?
does it effect the noise?
usually if you machine parts on a normal lathe
(i'm talking about machining metal) the tool lasts longer and the surface of the part you are maching is better.
look the volume is not a critical point for me anyway i personally think very loud records= less dynamic
but thats just my opinion.
thanks a lot man
greetings to italy
Hey Fragglefraggle wrote:hi montalbano,
thank you so much for sharing and telling your experience.
if i ever release my music on vinyl you can be sure to get the job:)
have you ever tried to put a little bit oil or something similar on the plate?
i'm a mechanical engineer and i could imagine the diamond last longer?
does it effect the noise?
usually if you machine parts on a normal lathe
(i'm talking about machining metal) the tool lasts longer and the surface of the part you are maching is better.
look the volume is not a critical point for me anyway i personally think very loud records= less dynamic
but thats just my opinion.
thanks a lot man
greetings to italy
Montalbano is referring to me on the last paragraph I am here in Aus man, so you want vinyl pressed in Italy? Why? is your buis man where you go I am just curious
FYI Magamike is also a poster here and he is in Perth he cuts away on a Kingston I think Check him out May be you want to send him mail I am sure he can clue you up on the ins and outs of cutting blanks other than lacquers
We do cut some dubs on lacquers but we avoid it if we can
Also oil on anything that you cut is a No No regardless what you cut It is a very good way of ruining a stylus in a few revolutions
Anti static spray is used succesfully I think that has a minute amount of silicon in it which acts as a lubricant which seems to work quite well on blanks other than lacquers
We have never used it but Flo as well as Andy b seem to and they should know
Cheers
Chris
hi, i am looking @ getting vinylrecorder. couple of questions
ive seen conflicting posts on whether vinylrecorder can cut lacquers, i know it means possibly having to changing things, but can it? if yes is it any good for it? are they ok for masters?
ive had a demo cut from souri. he wont sell feedback cutterhead to me as im a newb so i believe the demo was cut on the other one. the demo is good. but its very loud/bassy and the hi end struggles to be heard,on freq analysis after about 1700hz its flat. would the feedback cutterhead and mastering the tune differently help this?
btw ive been comparing the demo to same track from my LP. i know its not fair to compare really, but id like to get close... one day
many thanks
MD
ive seen conflicting posts on whether vinylrecorder can cut lacquers, i know it means possibly having to changing things, but can it? if yes is it any good for it? are they ok for masters?
ive had a demo cut from souri. he wont sell feedback cutterhead to me as im a newb
so i believe the demo was cut on the other one. the demo is good. but its very loud/bassy and the hi end struggles to be heard,on freq analysis after about 1700hz its flat. would the feedback cutterhead and mastering the tune differently help this?btw ive been comparing the demo to same track from my LP. i know its not fair to compare really, but id like to get close... one day
many thanks
MD
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Stevie342000
- Posts: 497
- Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:12 pm
Vinyl recorder diamond styli & Presto cutter head questi
May I put the cat amongst the pidgeons....?
I have a Rek O Kut M5 cutter carriage and a Presto 5C cutter head.
My question relates to cutting lexan and from what I have read the need for a diamond stylus, heated or not?
Does the Vinylrecorder diamond cutting styli fit a Presto cutter head? Which takes a long shank or is it ok to use Transco/Apollo sapphire stylii for cutting lexan with or without heating.
Most importantly how likely is Sourri to sell cutting styli to people who do not use his machine?
As I am only interested in cutting mono discs stereo issues are not a problem i.e. phasing, on stereo tapes played back on a full track mono recorder...no phasing issues exist....right!!!!
I have a Rek O Kut M5 cutter carriage and a Presto 5C cutter head.
My question relates to cutting lexan and from what I have read the need for a diamond stylus, heated or not?
Does the Vinylrecorder diamond cutting styli fit a Presto cutter head? Which takes a long shank or is it ok to use Transco/Apollo sapphire stylii for cutting lexan with or without heating.
Most importantly how likely is Sourri to sell cutting styli to people who do not use his machine?
As I am only interested in cutting mono discs stereo issues are not a problem i.e. phasing, on stereo tapes played back on a full track mono recorder...no phasing issues exist....right!!!!