Tips on how to get a louder cut?

[pizzahotline]

I'm wondering how to get my cuts louder. I'm doing the normal stuff like take a little bass out, use M/S EQ to remove stereo width and de-essing all so I can push the level and get louder cuts. I'm just wondering if anyone has some ninja techniques on how to get more level?

I'm cutting lacquers on a Neumann lathe.

Thanks

[misjah]

experience

[dmills]

What is the limiting factor for you?

Length of cut, Thermal overload (He helps) or HF limiting?

Some material I see these days from supposed 'mastering' people has an unreasonable amount of really deep bass (20Hz and below) which is largely pointless, eats disk area and does nothing good for tracking on playback (Playback Arm resonance is generally 10Hz or so), a reasonably steep HPF is sometimes indicated (Note that this is NOT the same problem that an EE exists to fix)!

Try to discourage the use of limiters at the end of the mastering process, what goes on the disk is not in any sense constant group delay and brick wall limiting as a route to loudness does not work well for vinyl.

If length of cut is the issue, and you are running some sort of variable pitch (and maybe depth) computer you can sometimes cheat by letting the minimum land go very slightly negative! Basically the stylus rides a certain distance down the groove wall so a SMALL amount of over cutting is not a disaster (But does put you outside the RIAA spec), push comes to shove you can do this by playing with the amplitude of the M component of the preview signal, depends a bit on what you are running.

You should be able to cut plenty hot with that rig I would have thought, it is a MUCH nicer lathe then mine and loud cuts are seldom a big issue for me (But I don't cut EDM so there is that).

[handcut]

I'm cutting lacquers on a Neumann lathe.

Don't take this the wrong way, but how does one get to the point of cutting on a Neumann without knowing this?

How loud are you cutting and much louder do you want to go?

What kind of programme material?

+1 on the limiting thing. Biggest p.i.t.a. for me is being sent stuff that is brickwalled.

[pizzahotline]

I'm cutting lacquers on a Neumann lathe.

Don't take this the wrong way, but how does one get to the point of cutting on a Neumann without knowing this?

Hehe. No offence taken. We all have to learn at some stage. I know how to cut at a good level but checking against similar music cut by others i'm curious to know how they've got theirs slightly louder than mine. Yes, I also have noticed that brick wall limited stuff is a pain. I'm mostly cutting dance music. What do you mean by '+1 on the limiting thing'? are you referring to the acceleration limiters?

[dmills]

He means that stuff that has been 'Mastered' by hammering a fast limiter is a pain to deal with, because while that sort of sort of works for digital, it does NOT work at all well as a route to a loud record.

The accel limiters are what they have to be to make a disk that can be both cut and played back, but they are a little crude in the SAL74, in that they have fixed thresholds, which can be a little low on a 45rpm cut (They are reasonable for a 33), and the thresholds are not diameter dependent (can be a good or bad thing depending), they are however seldom really the problem for most material.

Low and highpass at reasonable places before the lathe (There is probably no point in going above 16kHz or so with EDM), both to reduce coil heating, and to reduce the amount of velocity and accel limiting, the limiter sidechain sensitivity rises FAST with frequency, and as the limiter is active from about 2kHz or so, shelving off a bit up above 10k or so can make the limiters action down in the mid band much less annoying.

Maybe investigate offsetting the preview down a db or so (Causes some over cutting by making the groove pitch drop below 'minimum land' sometimes , and IIRC there is a switch on one of the groove pitch boards that determines how conservative that logic is, might be worth investigating if playing time is a concern.

I take it you have cut test disks and made sure the drive and feedback settings are resulting in the correct groove amplitude?

[leemichael]

Are you only cutting music that has already (supposedly) been mastered or are you being sent unmastered music for you to master AND to cut. This makes a difference.

I’ve dealt with a lot of dance music and it’s 50/50 (unmastered /mastered) for me and a lot of the time I reject the masters and ask for unmastered files.

[pizzahotline]

experience

is that a special type of VST that I can download for free somewhere?